|Some BG argument here. NO INSULT.|
|boyan_yu|| Well since seemingly I am not allowed to write in my own language I am forced to write in English. However I do not demand on you not writing in Macedonian, since we can all understand it.
Now to the point. In advance I would like to say that i do not mean to insult anyone - just to make a reasonable argument since this is a very impostant topic for me. I need to know what do you really think about this, without hard words ot curses. I realize that one of the two sides is terribly misleaden and I wish to know which one.
So here is the topic - why do YOU think that many of the people living in the state Macedonia are not part of the bulgarian nationality?
I have some arguments. I am sure that you have some. So let me know if I am wrong. After all - that's what the forums are for - arguing.
Yours Boyan Yurukov, Plovdiv, Bulgaria.
|n/a||Guess what people, my account was freezed AGAIN, wow now that really happens once in a lifetime when you go to a Macedonian forum...Here I am back in another one About the American Indians 1)Historical Sites 2)Documents by the white people 3)Most of the indian tribes didn't have writing About the Macedonians 1)If there was a Macedonian language somebody had to write in it 2)You vanished from the surface of the world for thousands of years 3)You believe to have a medieval state with Samuil, when Basil after his win against Samuil in 1014 near Klouch was called "the Bulgarian Slayer" Don't just throw your books at me filled with Serbian propaganda, show them if they are real, you can only win.|
|Maverik||So what is your problem now? I have presented you with ACTUAL books writen in MACEDONIAN before the WW2.|
|n/a||I believe MAverick you are a Macedonian patriot, I don't want you to show me those books I am only a normal guy, show them to Bojidar Dimitrov (the ex-director of the Bulgarian National Historical Museum) or just write to his show Pamet Balgarska, I will try to find the e-mail of his show. I guess you are a normal citizen 2, if 3 years after of waiting, Bojidar Dimitrov still hasn't got a response from any Historical MAcedonian Society or Patriotic Organization, I doubt you are going to be able to change something.|
|n/a||And now let us see what happened at the International Symposium on the life and heritage of K.P. Misirkov. The symposium took place in Skopje, starting on 27 Nov. and ending on 29 Nov, 2003. *Account of a participant: what was said about Misirkov* ========================================================== - I thought that the emotions had run out of steam, bit yesterday, 29 Nov. 2003, a new scandal erupted quite surprisingly, despite the absence of Katardzhiev. After two rather obtuse presentations, it was the turn of Rostislav Terzioski to present the results of his latest research on Misirkov. Terzioski is specialized on Russia and the USSR and is a very good expert on the historical Russian archives related to Balkan history. His talk was titled: *About some opinions of Misirkov concerning the Macedonian question*. Terzioski said that he had found in Russia a file of about 80 pages, written by Misirkov during 1914, consisting mainly of documents, memorandums and appeals to the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and other Russian institutions. All documents were related to the Macedonian question. Terzioski said that the documents had been known to very few people until now, and that they deserved to be published because of their importance. The words of Rostislav Terzioski follow: *************** Terzioski: - The content of these documents is in contradiction with some of the other writings of Misirkov, notably with his pamphlet "On the Macedonian Affairs". The documents do not confirm the established opinion of our historians about Misirkov. Is this a dilemma or is it a "so called" dilemma? For example, in a letter to the Russian foreign affairs minister, Misirkov declares himself to be a Bulgarian, talks about the unquestionably Bulgarian population of Macedonia, about his own Bulgarian background, about the Bulgarian people of Macedonia. Misirkov mourns for San-Stephano Bulgaria (which included all Macedonia), states that Macedonia is a staunchly Bulgarian land, talks about the suffering of the Bulgarian people in Macedonia under the Serbs, talks about the three main ethnic Bulgarian areas: North Bulgaria, Thrace and Macedonia. Misirkov says that 2.5 million Bulgarians were enslaved by Serbs and Greeks. He accuses Russia for separating Macedonia from Bulgaria and states that the Bulgarian national rights on Macedonia were unquestionable. He expresses his desperation from the fact that Macedonia was torn away from Bulgaria. Misirkov lashes out against the Serb propaganda which, according to him, was underway in Russia. He says that after the Bucharest treaty 2 million Bulgarians were enslaved by the Serbs. Misirkov demands united ethnic Bulgaria including all Macedonia, Dobrudzha, and Eastern Thrace. He states that the Serbs plundered lands that were ethnically purely Bulgarian, and that the Greeks stole Solun (Thessaloniki) from Bulgarians. Misirkov also has some...how should I say...some racist opinions about the Serbs. He states that Serbs are nothing but Shumadian shepherds and swine herdsmen, that Serbia was created by the swine trader Karageorge, that Serbia was the main culprit for the suffering of the Macedonian Bulgarians. He talks about some characteristic feature of the Serb swine herdsmen as "King killers" and traitors, and says that Serbs were suppressing and destroying a thousand years old Bulgarian culture in Macedonia. Misirkov says that the population of Macedonia is Bulgarian and as such it must live in a united Bulgarian land. He calls on the Russian government to stop the assimilation of the Macedonian Bulgarians by the Serbs. He talks about the Bulgarian cultural superiority in comparison with the Serbs, expresses many times his conviction that Macedonia must be united with Bulgaria, and is worried that there was a danger of most of Bulgarians leaving Macedonia. In other documents Misirkov argues against the theories of the Serb historian Cviich and his theses that the Slavic population of Macedonia was a "fluid mass of people without a national consciousness". Misirkov proves that the Macedonian population "is not a mass of pliable dough, as Cviich alleges, but rather a very thoroughly baked Bulgarian bread, which belongs to Bulgaria". In one of his letters from 1914 Misirkov states that the term "Macedonians" means only Macedonian Bulgarians and can not mean anything else. He accuses the Russian ambassador Rostkovsky for giving in to Serb propaganda and accepting the Serb theory that Macedonians were only Slavs, but not Bulgarians. Misirkov says that this theory is a Serb lie and that the Russian ambassador was somehow tricked by the Serbs to accept it. In all his letters Misirkov expresses his deep sorrow for the fate of Bulgaria, which was torn and plundered by her neighbors during the Balkan wars. ****************** (End of Terzioski citation. Narrator resumes his account) -Terzioski talked about all these things for more than 15 minutes. Most of the listeners looked as if they had suddenly frozen. In the end Terzioski simply thanked for the attention, said that all these facts were not entirely new, that some people had written before on this topic. He referred in particular to the writings of Cyrnushanov, who "researched well all the zigzags of Misirkov's ideas". He said that such data exists in Macedonia too, but the official historians think that such data must not be published. Without mentioning his name, he attacked Blazhe Ristovski, who had tried the previous day to dismiss the allusions of the Polish historian Jolanta Suiecka about Misirkov being a Bulgarian chauvinist. Ristovski had tried to brush away such thoughts by alleging that Misirkov expressed his Bulgarian nationalist ideas only after 1920, when he lived in Bulgaria: according to Ristovski at that time Misirkov was forced to conform to the political situation in Bulgaria, his articles were edited, etc. - All in all a heap of worthless artificial explanations. So Terzioski reminded the audience about these explanations of Ristosvki, and rhetorically asked the question: Who forced Misirkov to write such things in 1914, when he did not live in Bulgaria, and there was no one to "force him to conform to the political situation"? Without any applause, Terzioski left the stage and went to his seat. The audience had sunk in deep silence and gloom. =========================================== (End of participant's account) Well, as we can see Macedonians are finally discovering the big truth about their past and about who they are. I mean the real Macedonians, which according to Misirkov are Macedonian Bulgarians. As for the Fyrominas like Zhvko Apostolov(ski), they will never discover anything, simply because their mind is irreversibly damaged by that same Serbian propaganda about which Misirkov was talking a century ago...|
|DJ_SHEMA||If you do not believe that there is a Macedonian nation than a Macedonia forum will not exist right? And also, a VMRO (Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija) , is actualy VBRO, right? The facts are there, you are just ignoring them. We ban you because we are tired of the same winding up bull shit that you present to only anger us. We do not need to discuss your view on history. You are not welcomed here, so take the hint of beeing banned 20 times and fuck off.|
quote:Moron, get your stuff straight. If you want to stay on this forum answer the questions approprietly and do not circumvent the issues to create anger. I showed you that the CIA site states that Bulgarians are a turkish tribe. Macedonias on the other had have been on this teritory long before christ. That is the point, clear and conscise, or you don't like it so you ignore it. On the picture issue, you stated that there were hardly any Macedonian in Pirin Macedonia, we showed you a picture we houndreds of them celebrating. Are they eskimos? And answer the issue VMRO was fighting for free macedonia, not for joining it toward bulgaria. Time is running out, last oportunity.
quote:If you beleive that Macedonians do not exist, than there is no need for you to be on a Macedonian forum. I ll help you with that.
|veronika||I am cheap Bulgarian whore. AIDS FREE 50% Guarantee!|
|graf||cheap,$1 whores . better prices than in thailand|
|Thunder from down under||
quote:sho pari barash verce za jas ,graf ,strelec i slasa naednas site ke popustis nekoj dinar? ili 5 dushi minimum za popust
|n/a||Dear Shema, 1) I said CLEARLY and continue to state emphatically that a picture does not mean ANYTHING! Remember the Nazi Germans and their pictures portraying the German arian race and the evil Jew with the long pointy beard? Historical argument means exchanging historical ORIGINAL documents and basing your historical view on them.Your threat that time is running out and that I'll be banned from this ng is not my choice.What is my choice however is to express myself with the freedom that I'm used to.If opinions contrary to those popular in this ng are not welcomed or allowed that is your business.I'm nobody's slave! 2)Moron? If there is someone losing his temper here it's you.You are so wrapped up in your fanaticism that you can't distinguish between a Greek and a Bulgarian! I wonder how well you monitor the posts here that a person who has mentioned many times that he is Greek is misinterpreted as a Bulgarian. I will repeat that the points I made concern international political issues.While whoever chooses to do so can ignore them and hide in their cocoon,they will however not go away. So as far as my country Greece is concerned,my compatriots and I are always looking to make friends.(like the Serbs for example and now the Bulgarians,and the Romanians) I'm glad that your countrymen do not share your lack of tolerance for opposing opinions.I'm not sure you understand to what extremes the Greek state will reach to protect it's interests if your people decide to be as provocative as you on a diplomatic level. What cannot be resolved between us in this ng is a disapointing reflection of what we cannot resolve between our nations diplomatically. And what cannot be resolved by our nations diplomatically will be resolved by worse methods,be it economic or all out military war. We are not afraid of fighting the Turks whenever necesary, we certainly will not back off countries many times smaller. So in closing I will offer you a more realistic choice that you will have to make. Consider yourself as a reresentative of your people and me a representative of mine.Do you want me to interpret your intentions as hostile? Do you realise what would be the results of your actions if you had as much power over your country as you do in this ng? Diplomacy or War? Power carries resposibilites,try to be as tolerant with those weaker than you as you would want others stronger than you to be tolerant of your opinions. Perhaps you might want to reconsider your statements below with a more civilized attitude,or you might want to continue living in your own little world. regards, Byzantine Moron, get your stuff straight. If you want to stay on this forum answer the questions approprietly and do not circumvent the issues to create anger. I showed you that the CIA site states that Bulgarians are a turkish tribe. Macedonias on the other had have been on this teritory long before christ. That is the point, clear and conscise, or you don't like it so you ignore it. On the picture issue, you stated that there were hardly any Macedonian in Pirin Macedonia, we showed you a picture we houndreds of them celebrating. Are they eskimos? And answer the issue VMRO was fighting for free macedonia, not for joining it toward bulgaria. Time is running out, last oportunity. [/quote]|
|DJ_SHEMA||Byz I know your kind well enough to know your intentions. I am not losing my temper, but I will not tolerate winding up the visitors on this forum. Kindly avoiding the questions asked, while at the same time provoking with additional rubish will not be tolerated here. Instead of giving me a lesson on etique, why don't you answer the questions. I don't dislike greeks as long as they recognize that I am Macedonian and my country name is Macedonia If you have problems with these issues than I will dislike you. I ve had greek friends, but the abovementioned issues were fully understood by my "friends". I don't hate people just because of their origin, by I will dispise them if they do not recognize my origin and herritage. I am not a representative of my country, so no need for generalization. The sample of Macedonians on this forum is few thousands, so you can draw your own conclusions. I am not a fanatic, but a person with low treshold for scum. You, and few bulgarians on here are guests on this forum and should observe the rules, which state clearly no insults, personal nor national. As long as that is observed, than we can discuss historical issues.|
|Thunder from down under||Bizantin, why do refer to Macedonians as slav-macedonians? are there any other kinds of macedonians? slavs come to balkans from russia in the 7 th century, we Macedonians where in the balkans long before the slavs we got nothing to do with the slavs and i am sure you know that very good you must get some kind of kicks by saying it|
quote:Ej, Ti od Nebca, Debca kako i da e? Vie odselo tamu da ne mavate trevka premnogu??? Pa vo film nekoj da go glumite konjo na Aleksander the Greek? aj begaj tamu GazMent
|Thunder from down under||gazmet aj kacise na magareto i odisi nazad vo chercenija|
|Thunder from down under||ovaj samo za vas bese [img]http://www.crimesofwar.org/onnews/pix/milosevic-ap.jpg[/img][img]http://www.123.cl/canales/noticias/img/milosevic.gif[/img] [img]http://www.newcanada.com/150/milosevic.jpg[/img] AJDE CMOKCE DA MU DAJS SEGA LJOCKE NA CELO I AJ MAFNISE ODTUKA TI NEZNAES SO RUCASE, POLITIKA I ISTORIJA KE KAZUVAS|
|graf||taka thunder. :)|
|ozonce||Thunder e nervozen!|
Things,especially in the Balkans are not so easy.I think it is artificial to start any discussion from the seventh cetury onwards.
I've extracted these events from the book "Byzantine Society and State" (Stanford Press)
Events from 400 - 490AD (Waves of Germanic tribes moving south)
The big waves of tribes start desending onto the Balkan peninsula as early as 397AD when Alaric and his Visigoths who raid the Roman empire as far south as Korinth (southern Greece).The Emperor Eutropius makes a bargain and allows Alaric and the Visigoths to settle in "Epirus Nova" (What is now northwestern Greece and Albania).
In 442AD Rome loses to Attila the Hun and gives him free passage to all teritories within a five day march of the Danube.
In 452AD Attila the Hun dies.Some of his Hunic tribes leave,some settle north of the Danube (current Romania)
In 471AD emperor Leo loses to the Germanic tribes and gives them the following territories to settle in:
a)Northern Ostrogoths in Macedonia north of the "Via Egnatia",and as far east as current Veliko Tarnovo(central Bulgaria)
b)Strabo's Ostrogoths are settled in Thrace (Veliko Tarnovo to Danube to Varna)
In 488 Theodoric Ostrogoths (one of the tribes that had been traveling with the Strabo Ostrogoths are given Dalmatia and move from Thrace to what is today Croatia.
Doesn't this stuff get you dizzy with all the settlement and waves of Germanics comming south?
Wave 2,the Huns
It's only the beggining because as of 493AD a new tribe dominates the left over Huns north of the Danube called the Bulgars and leading the Huns raid Thrace comming from the Danube where they had settled since the victory of Attila in 442AD
From 493 - 540AD the Bulgars continiously raid Illiricum,Macedonia,and Thrace.
(540-544 Bubonic Plague hits the empire)
Wave 3: The Slavs
From 547 - 558 the Slavs are raiding southwards to Skup (Roman Garison-town which has by this period is renamed Justiniana Prima (since it was the birth place of emperor Justinian.
From 558 -585 the eastern Roman legions are swamped by attacks from all directions North (Balkans),East (Asia)etc,from Kostigur Huns,Bulgars,Slavs,Avars,etc.,but pay more attention to the tribes attacking from the east in Asia.
When in 585AD the Slavs attack the second biggest port in the eastern empire (Thessaloniki)they begin to organize a massive campaign in the Balkans.
In 593 the legions move to the Balkans and start a campaign which defeats all the tribes in the region so that by 602AD they regain rule of the lost territories.
This is by no means a permanent arrangement as you can understand by the above,the empire will lose and regain lands over and over again.What is a given however is that the empire starts looking as follows:
The Latin speaking part of the Byzantine empire remains at times barricaded within fortified walls in the norther cities of the Balkans such as Dyrachium with mixed Greek and Latin speaking population,(Currently Durres in Albania),Skup (currently Skopje)totaly latin speaking,Serdica (Currently Sofia),Philipoupolis with a mixed Greek and Latin population (currently Plovdiv),and Anchialos (on the black sea mostly Greek speaking port.
These were the cities that made up the northern border of the Byzantine empire located at a distance from the Via Egnatia as a first line of defense and trade posts.
Why go through all this history? Because it's important to note that the only cities which were able to survive the influx of these nomadic tribes where the ones very close to the Via Egnatia.This was the most important trade corridor (being rebuilt as we speak with the same name)which linked Rome to Konstantinople by land and reached as far east as the Persian empire.
By the sixth century there is a sense of community but along two levels:
1)citizenship:All ancient peoples living in the empire considered themselves and differeciated themselves on the lines that they were roman citizens,where as the barbarians could not aquire this right.
2)nationality:This category was more linguistic than anything else.All latin speaking citizens considered themselves the original Romans,all eastern citizens mostly Greek speaking (but desended from both Greeks,Armenians,and northern Arabs,who considered themselves older Christian nations than the latin Romans.The Catholic and Orthodox church were separated along the same linguistic lines,Latin speaking = Catholic,Greek speaking = Orthodox.
As for the geographical region of Macedonia it did not stay the same throughout the Roman and Later Byzantine empire.For example after the reforms of the emperor Diocletion the borders of the provinces changed and kept on changing depending on demographics and potential tax collection.Furthermore if you where close to the emperor your province could very well incorporate parts of another and so on and so forth.As such people began associating more with their local city which was the capital and administrative center than any wider regional perceptions.Don't forget every city had it's own Siants,traditions,holidays etc.
This goes back to the times of the apostels of Christ St.Peter and St.Paul which send epistles to the: Berians,Romans,Ephesians,Corinthians,Thessalonians, etc.(the identity based on urban communities had already started.
Furthermore by the 6th century "Roman citizens" lived in or very close to cities with fortified walls.The remaining nomadic element lived further away where they dealt with animal herding and trade with the cities.So in the same province you had Beroians for example who lived close to the city and others who had a tribal identity but lived in the same exact region.But with time as the nomads dominate in numbers the romans leave to bigger urban centers and the nomads stay behind where they later are either assimilated or assimilate the older tribes already in existence.You must keep in mind that the ancient peoples who had religious traditions a written language and a complex culture would not marry a tribesman so as to assimilate,so wherever roman citizens were too few they would just leave.
Such was the case of both Skup/Justinian Prima, and Stobi.
You want to look for real Macedonians you'd be better off looking for them in Thesaloniki,Ephesus,Ikonio,and especially Alexandria,where by the sixth century they call themselves Romans.
If you want the pages and chapters where to find this info in the book I refered to just say so and it will be provided for you.
|Misirkov||Od govorot na Jane Sandanski: "Nie vodime borba protiv vas, vrhovistite, zatoa shto sakate da ja potchinite Organizacijata i da ja napravite orudie na bugarskiot dvorec. So vashata oruzena intervencija vo Dzhumajsko, vie na osloboditelnata borba i pridadovte karakter na veshtachko dvizhenje koe se inspirira od vas od oficijalna Bugarija, a ne od vnatreshnostta i od samiot poroben narod. So toa vie i go ubivate prestizhot i ostavate vpechatok deka nie sme orudie na bugarskata drzhava, i so seto toa my prechite na osloboditelnoto delo. Nie reshitelno im se sprotivstavivme na vashite oficeri zashto go znaeme nivnoto vospituvanje, nivnite intimni zamisli. Tie se lugje shto dale kletva za vernost na bugarskiot knez i na bugarskata drzhava, i tie ne mozhat da bidat nishto drugo osven nivni slepi i poslushni orudija. A pak nie ne sakame da ja zamenime turskata tiranija, turskite sultani so drugi takvi, pa ni so bugarskata tiranija i bugarskiot knez. Nie sakame Makedonija da bide avtonomna, nezavisna, slobodna, Makedonija na Makedoncite. Vie ja barate slobodata na Makedonija kako sredstvo, kako etapa na idni osvojuvanja i prisoedinuvanja, dodeka kaj nas slobodata, avtonomijata na Makedonija se polozheni vo osnovata,kako cel. Ete kade lezhi golemata razlika megju nas, vnatreshnite i vas-vrhovistite. Ako gi pushtevme vashite drugari-oficeri vo TMORO, tie ke ja vodea oruzhenata borba, tie ke gi imaa vo svoite race chetite, bojnite jatki, Organizacijata, i po takov nacin, pri slobodna Makedonija tie ke mu se nalozhea na makedonskoto naselenie, tie ke mu diktiraa da go bara prikluchuvanjeto na Makedonija kon Bugarija, kako shto stana so Istochna Rumelija vo 1885 godina. Nie ja mesevme pogagata,vie ke ja jadevte."|
|Christian||dimo2 oj pasi treva mali|
|Ceki||Well, sofians can call themselves shopi, ... But the problem is that those who call themselves Macedonians, dont think they are bulgarians, but Macedonians! The name Macedonia is older than bulgaria, shopi, ... So it is irational to think that Macedonia could be part of bulgarian identity!
quote:So, if you want to conclude, that we are bulgarians, because we speak slavic language, be welcome to tell this to all other slavic speaking nations aswell[:)] And when you will be by Croatians, tell them they are serbians, because they speak similar language to serbians[:)]
quote:As possible as you can say, that you are succesors of Thracians, bulgarians, slavs, ... For christ sake, what is weird here? Balkan is very transitive region. Tribes came and passed. Some stayed and by mixing all those ancient people we got Macedonians, we know today. And please stop with bullshiting, that this is not possible. Are you trying to say that you are PURE and CLEAN bulgarian, slav or whatever you think you are. This is not possible and absurd! Not on balkan, bulgar! Macedonia was always place where different tribes, religions, cultures met and time by time developed int one of the greatest and unique culture of all times, that all other nations at some point took something from! At least people and land, if nothing else!
quote:At least we agree!
quote:BTW, for me is very stupid and absurd, how you and greeks say that there are Macedonians in your country, but that they are bulgars and greeks at the same time! Not to mention serbs here. FUCK IT is the world blind or what!!!!
|Pavel_Petrov||You didnt understand me quite clear. I said that Bulgarians are Slavs just to tell you to stop calling Bulgarians --Tatars. By the way I live in North Bulgaria and I look like Norwegian or Swede. The next thing.I said modern Macedonians are Slavs. 100% true. You speak Slavonic Language .. 100% true. This fact doesnt make you Bulgarians. I dont want to say this. I just said that modern Macedonians are Slavs. Ancient Macedonians are not Slavs. This is more than 10000% true. So I just want to ask. How can you be the successors of Alexander? PS. I do not want to prove that Macedonians are Bulgarians. I just want to tell you that in Bulgaria(in the borders of Bulgaria). Macedonian means a man that lives in the region Macedonia.And those people that live in Pirin region know they are Bulgarians. They just call themselves Macedonian to show where are they from. Just like Bitolian means a man living in Bitola. Bitolians are not separate nation ,right? To Ceki: Do not call me bulgar. There no living bulgar on the world. This is ancient people. Nowadays there are Bulgarians and Bolgars. Bolgars are in Russia.They do not have their own language and they are muslims.|
Second, i already answered on your questions and "thesis"!!! And you obviously dont have a clue about MIXING different tribes in one nation, if you think, we Macedonians are PURE slavs or bulgars!!!
For example, when i already answered you:
quote:Answer: BTW, for me is very stupid and absurd, how you and greeks say that there are Macedonians in your country, but that they are bulgars and greeks at the same time! Not to mention serbs here. FUCK IT is the world blind or what!!!!
quote:YOU, I MEAN YOU, NOOOOOOOOO, YOU REALLY WOULDNT DO THAT, MWAHAHAHAA! Not the little innocent Daisy over here!
|graf||abre Bugarija is just a country that has a broken down nuclear reactor , priate cds and clothes and cheap whore ahahah|
quote:Ok... first of all to answer Q 1... Chernopeev and lerinski were Bulgarians of course they are going to come from Bulgaria... they were Bulgarian by Nationality Q2 Which leaders? are you talking about the Vrhovisti (who inflitrated VMRO for the intrests of Bulgaria) Q3 the Macedonians had to finish in Bulgarian, Greek or Serbian schools because during that time big propaganda wars were going on in Macedonia organised by the Churches of Bulgaria greece and serbia to brainwash the Macedonians but it didnt work... maybe in some cases it did.. and also another factor for them to finish school in bulgaria or grece and serbia was due to the fact that these countries got independance from the ottoman empire while Macedonia was still under Occupation an example of a famous Macedonians education is Krste Petkov Misirkov who studied in Belgrade (Serbia). Q4 All the finance and weapons werent just from Bulgaria, weapons were also smuggled from the region of now Albania. Q5 Bulgarian litteracy? is the russian Alphabet Bulgarian aswell...? the Macedonians mostly were educated in Bulgaria and its fair to say of course they were going to use the alphabet they learnt... im using the english/latin alphabet... its because i learnt this... and for the record that alphabet is Macedonian... Made by St Kiril and Metodij who were Macedonians from Solun hence... makeing it the old Macedonian alphabet. finally lucky last Q6 Boris Sarafov, Aleksandar Protegorov and Co... were Vrhovisti tied to Imperial Bulgaria's foreign affairs who worked for the enemy against their brothers... Sorry for this late reply to this post... i just saw it now!!!
Finally someone at this forum who tries to give an actual answer and doesn't hide under tons of swearing and the usual banning and deleting!
However let me not agree with you!
First you did not answer the first part of the post by backagain about the name of the organization:
VMORO (Vatreshna Makedono-Odrinska Revolutiona Organizatia)1905-1919
TMORO (Taina Makedono-Odrinska Revolutiona Organizatia)1902-1905
BMORK (Balgarski Makedono-Odrinski Revolutionen Komitet)1893-1902
What's your comment?
quote:NO! The docs are in LITERAT BULGARIAN FORM...not just letters...but everything!!!The way you and I speak,though very close, has some differences...and the docs of VMRO, including their USTAV, are all in BG norm of language...ONE very easy example...you say sLoboda and the literary BG norm is sVoboda, but that's just one example out of many.... I am posting you docs by VMRO so you can see what I am talking about...they are in the old BG writing norm prior to 1945 when some minimal changes were done to simplify it! [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/goce.jpg[/img] A letter from Goce Delchev to Nikola Maleshevski (first page) The underlined sentence "...,what are we to do when we are bulgarians......" [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/gocepismo2.jpg[/img] A letter from Goce Delchev to Nikola Maleshevski (second page) [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/gocerakopis.jpg[/img] Another letter from Goce Delchev [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/Resize%20of%202ndmaceareaseal%20-%20Dame%20Gruev.jpg[/img] The seal of Second Macedono-Adrianopole Revolutionary Region [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/Svoboda%20ili%20smyrt%20pechat.jpg[/img] A seal of VMRO [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/memorandum.jpg[/img] Memorandum from the leaders of the Ilinden Uprising to the Bulgarian government [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/Resize%20of%20invitation%201893.jpg[/img] Invitation [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/tmoro.ustav.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/Ustav%20VMORO.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/ustav.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/obqvqvane%20na%20vystanieto.jpg[/img]
|Fred||If the docs do NOT open use this like to see them: http://www.aloofhosting.com/makedonija/vmro.htm|
|Misirkov||I said that Bulgarians are Slavs......By the way I live in North Bulgaria and I look like Norwegian or Swede. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Are they really?! Two businessmen have offered 5.000.000 milion EURO for explainign how did they turn into "Slavs"! You may be able to earn them if you show how such a miracle happened. For Bulgarians were and still are turkic-mongol people (which I assume you are not). The fact that you may look like a Swede should make you question whether you are an ethnic Bulgarian, or you whether you bear a "political name" Bulgarian. There is a sea of difefrence. So think about it whether your roots are in Altai or in Macedonia. There is a reason why Bulgaria does not let go of Macedonia, and you should wise up to know why. On the other hand, there still are people with historical mongoloid looks today in Bulgaria. I have seen them in Lovec for example. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Macedonians are Slavs. 100% true. You speak Slavonic Language .. 100% true. I just said that modern Macedonians are Slavs. Ancient Macedonians are not Slavs. This is more than 10000% true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Macedonians are Macedonains and speak Macedonian language. Classifying them and their language into larger categories is where you or others stumble and often draw erroneous conclusions about us. Some Western linguists at Harvard do not call it "slavic" at all but a "Macedonian group of languages" -- just like there is bulgarian group of languages (chuvas or tatar for example). "Slavic" is a Byzantine invention anyway -- as proved by scholar Florin Curta: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521802024/wwwlink-software-21/026-9236358-7182006 Our ancestors, the ancienty Macedonians of Philip and Alexander (which are likely your ancesttors as well), spoke their own native language, as did many tribes and peoples that inhabited Macedonia since prehistory till today, here including the Bulgarinas who spoke their asiatic language. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. I just want to tell you that in Bulgaria (in the borders of Bulgaria), Macedonian means a man that lives in the region Macedonia. 2. And those people that live in Pirin region know they are Bulgarians. 3. They just call themselves Macedonian to show where are they from. Just like Bitolian means a man living in Bitola. Bitolians are not separate nation, right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1). OK. 2). Many people in Pirin Macedonia were and still are Macedonians. Due to 200 years of systematic denationalization, Macedonians to this very day are not able to self-identify. Why doesn't the Bulgarian govenment allow them to freely express their ethnicity as this is their right??? There is pervasive evidence of harassment at every level if Macedonians do so. Even the advisor to Zelju Zelev recognized that the numbers were hidden in the past 14 years and Bulagria was ostracised in EU institutions because of it. MANY IN BULGARIA DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS OUR GOOD WILL THAT WE DID NOT MAKE AN ISSUE OUT OF THIS SO BULGARIA CAN HAVE A FREE PASS IN EU. 3). Not only it is not true, it is plain idiotitc not to recognize the difference between Macedonian nationality and an inhabitant of Bitola! And why do you feel compelled to tell us who and what we are, and what should "Macedonia/n" mean when we clarly had identified as Macedonians? Did you know that there were 25 public persecutions in 1948 on of known Macedonians who epressed their national consciousnes? Unfortunately, the darkness of the communist era in Bulgaria continues today with regards to the Macedonians, with more refined methods. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Do not call me bulgar. There no living bulgar on the world. This is ancient people. Nowadays there are Bulgarians and Bolgars. Bolgars are in Russia.They do not have their own language and they are muslims. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bulgars are the people (Bolgar, B'lkar, Bulgar) you claim are your ancestors, don't you? You can't sit on two chairs: bulgarian descendants, but then "slavs". Em saka da se "raboti" em da ne mu vleze.[:)]|
quote:Ok... like i said before... the Macedonians learnt in Bulgarian schools of course they are going to use this alphabet, they learnt, just like kostadin mladinov learnt in greek and wrote in greek... the Letter by Goce Delchev is falsified... Bulgarians are known for falsifying History especially Macedonian history... Why dont the Bulgarians tell the truth and admit they were the ones responsible for the death of Goce Delchev, and the fall of the ilinden upsrping?
quote:You don't understand that they did not only use the BG alphabet...they use BULGARIAN...WHY DID NOT THEY USE YOUR WAY OF SPEAKING BUT THE LITTERY BG NORM?!? Why is it fause??BECAUSE you want to believe that it is not true?This is NOT the only place where Goce speaks of himself and the rest of VMRO as Bulgarian...it's just one strong written proof I could find on the net... YOU ARE FREE to visit the archives and see this "false" letter... Letters are hard to falsify...with a simple and very easy test of hand writing and time dating a latter could be easily prooved genuine! P.S. I am not responsible that your historiogrphy is based only on the single "proof" that all the rest is lying and everybody in the world is against you...Everything is false...and stufff...
|Ceki||NIKOLA KAREV DO GOCE DELCEV, 1902 Dragi G(oce) Moite izvestai stanuvaat se poveke i poveke samo kako goli konstatacii na onie svireposti i zverstva sto ovoj svet gi podnesuva. Odamna trebase veke da im se dade nazivot izvestai za nesrekite i bedite na hristijanite vo Vilaetot. Vo Krusevsko i Bitolsko stanuvaat sekojdnevno nokni blokadi na sela, a mnogubrojnite aferi frlaat mnogu luge v zatvor. Ne treba da cekame poveke, Goce. Vreme e veke da staneme i da se bieme. Da ne cekame sloboda nitu od Grcite nitu od Bugarite, ami sami nie Makedoncite da se borime za nasa Makedonija, sto ja zasiluva organizacijata megu selanite i da ne se spomenuvaat tvrdenjata deka "site Makedonci rabotele za prisoedinuvanjeto na Makedonija kon Bugarija ili Grcija". Sto se odnesuva do mene, nikoj ne ke moze da mi ja odzeme mojata hrabrost i mojot patriotizam. Drago mi e da Ti soopstam deka site nasi momci se gotovi so puska v raka da se bijat. N(ikola)|
|Misirkov||In order not to repeat ourselves, kindly visit the following topic to see who and what Bulgars are: http://forums.vmacedonia.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6039|
|Freddy||I see no problem in this letter by Nikola Karev! Who says that the ppl did not feel Macedonian?Of course they did...however, they clearly knew that Macedonian meant being someone who lives in Macedonia - Bulgarian, Greek, Vlach etc. They wanted an multiethnical independant state!They never however said they are not Blgarians. In his letter Karev speaks of "Bugarija" i "Bugarite" meaning the pll and the authorities of Bulgaria. VMRO did not only faught for the right of the Bulgarians in Macedonia,it also faught for the other ethnical groups - greeks,vlachs,albanians....They all were macedonians... One question; why are like 95% of the ppl from VMRO with names ending in -ov?Very little -ski?Unlike TODAY that you have most names in -ovski! Why do the liders of VMRO have 3 NAMES...like us Bulgarians...I know that you usually have only 2 names like the serbs!|
|Ceki||OMFG, you must be really stupid. Because he said Macedonians, he thought by that bulggariasn + others??? So when he sais i am Macedonian, he means i am bulgarianalbanian+other?? a ne cekame sloboda nitu od Grcite nitu od Bugarite, ami sami nie Makedoncite da se borime za nasa Makedonija For christ sake somebody ban this geek forever from this forum.|
|Misirkov||KLIKNI TUKA: http://www.makedonika.org/sarafov3.GIF ***************** *************** ************** ************* ************ *********** ********** ********* ******** ******* ****** ***** **** *** ** * "SITE STO AGITIRAAT BILO VO MAKEDONIJA BILO NADVOR OD NEA VRZ BAZATA NA OSLOBODUVANJE I OBEDINUVANJE NA BUGARITE, TREBA DA BIDAT PRECEKUVANI NEPRIJATELSKI OD VMRO, ISTO KAKO STO SE PRECEKUVAA OD ORGANIZACIJATA SPRPSKITE I GRCKITE AGITACII I CHETI. TREBA DA SE RABOTI ZA RAZBUDUVANJE NA SVESTA NA MASITE DEKA SE TIE SAMOSTOEN NAROD, DEKA IMAAT PRAVO NA SLOBODEN ZIVOT, I DEKA TREBA DA SE BORAT ZA IZVOJUVANJE NA SVOJATA SLOBODA, BEZ DA SE NADEVAAT NA TUGKA POMOS, ZATOA STO ONIE STO BI DOSLE DA NE OSLOBODAT, KJE DOJDAT VSUSNOST DA NE ZAROBAT. MAKEDONSKOTO PRASANJE E NERAZRESLIVO AKO SE POSTAVI KAKO BUGARSKO PRASANJE." Jane Sanndanski na nelegalnata konferencija na aktivistite na VMRO od site revolucionerni okruzi, noemvri 1907 godina.|
quote:... first of all... as i wrote previously... they used Bulgarian??? why... because there was no Macedonian school's Macedonia was still under Ottoman occupation, they went to Bulgarian schools, is kostadin Mladinov Greek for using the greek language???? am i english/american/australian for using the english language??? No i am not... language doesnt mean your ethnicity... as for the letters, isnt it a ironic that even your own musueam (Sofia National Historical Museum) revealed the truth regarding the falsyfications? oh yes it is!!!! the VMRO-vci didnt regard the name Macedonia and Macedonians as what you stated later on in the posts... it is stupid to think and say so... because in the Krushevo constitution it clearly distinguishes at the nationalities living in Macedonia... with Macedonians at the top and Arnautite (Albanians), Vlachs, Turks etc etc... as how i mentioned in the Previous post about Goce Delchev being betrayed... well, let me answer that... Goce Delchev was betrayed by a Bulgarian... he went to the Military Acedemy with him.. he told the Turks were Goce was (Banica) and they killed him, also... the ILINDEN upspring was called to early because of Bulgaria... Bulgaria said "when the first gun fires in Macedonia, Bulgaria will jump in straight away to free Macedonia and the Macedonians" where was Bulgaria? no where... Bulgaria's meddling in cost more Macedonian lives then the Turks had ever taken.
quote:Fala za odgovorot Dimo... jas mislev tatar si ama stom si bugar dobro e![^] Jas imam 12 godini tuka nekade si, a drugarite mi vikaat deka sum idiot vo pravo si [:D] Fala sto mi kaza sto e toa highlander, neznaev seriozno... ova specijalno za da me zaebes go barase recnikot/leksikonot za da mi pokazes sto e highlander?... polaskan sum... Zaebancijata ti e na mesto... Ti nekoj mnogu golem zaebant si tamu a? Bravo! Prodolzi taka![^] I jas nesakam da se raspravam so takvi gomna kako tebe zatoa te prasav dali si tatar, oti ako bese tatar ke ti kazev nesto, vaka sega ke moras da se zadovolis samo so ova... ama ne se luti ke ima uste, bidi tuka pa ke se citame... Tvoeto nivo mnogu visoko e a? Sto e tolku visoko nivo koga doagjas tuka i jades gomna? Toa li e nivo? Toa e tatarskoto visoko nivo... Kaj vas se e na "nivo" ti priznavam [^] I jas taka ednas na "mnogu visoko nivo" im jadev gomna na amerikancite deka se indijanci... tie ubavo me prifatija i me pokanija i drug pat da otidam tamu i da im kazuvam prikazni deka se indijanci, isto taka rekoa deka sum na "mnogu visoko nivo", "tolku visoko nivo mi rekoa moze samo kaj tebe da se najde" ...mi rekoa... he he... da, da taka mi rekoa, ne te lazam...da, da, da... eve da jades gomna ako te lazam... [:D] aj sea... "go to your next level" make my day so vikase ovoj... ne e vazno koj "Nie ne sme Makedonci kako sto se pretstavuvame... Od kade nie Makedonci?...nie samo taka se zaebavame tatari... nie sme si ova so vikaat dimo i fred, kako se vikaa... aha da tatari, tatari sme nie gospoda, tatari sme, od kaj Makedonci pffff... nema sansi... Koj go izmisli toa Makedonci majkata, sigurno nekoj komunist... toa pred komunistite go nemalo a? Komunistite sto bea "Vecna druzba so SSSR"? Neeee od kaj tie, ne e tocno! Mora da se drugiiii C c c c... Kako mozele da ne izlazat mamamiceto nivno komunisticko? E sea ke vidat oni koj ke lazat! Plus nie ne sme na nivo! Nie sme pod nivoto na fasizmot, sovinizmot, sadizmot i agresijata... da, da pod nego sme... Izvinete za naseto "nisko nivo" tatari...
|Misirkov||Highlander, spusti topka! Vidi sto im veli Jane Sandanski na bugaromanite/tataroljupcite: "...Ние сакаме Македонија да биде автономна, независна, слободна, Македонија на Македонците. Вие ја барате слободата на Македонија како средство, како етапа на идни освојувања и присоединувања, додека кај нас слободата, автономијата на Македонија се положени во основата,како цел..." - Ј. Сандански|
|highlander||Koga zaginal Goce Delcev tatarite rekle: "Konecko se otarasivme od ova kuce"... Sega go slavat.|
|highlander||Plus uste ova za vas kako gratis[:D]... Plakas edno dobijas dve... Tatari vie ako moze taka da se kaze ste druga rasa razbirate! Vie ste azijati bre, toa moze sekoj slucaen minuvac niz balkanive da go kaze. E sega ovoj Fred li bese neznam koj bil plav, ili smegj i gotovo resen problem! Koga nekoj ke premine od etnickata granica na Makedonija (iako ve ima se poveke i tamu, veke odamna go koloniziravte toa parce zemja) vo Bugarija ke si rece: Kaj dojdov jas ova Azija e ili sto e rabotava? Kakvi se ovie luge? Od kaj dosle? I odma ke mu tekne od kade ste, nemora mnogu tupenje za da se vidi koi ste vie [^] Sekoj vas zbor ke bide zaluden... covek ke moze samo da si se nasmevne na vasiot odgovor deka ste sloveni ova ona. Isto taka moze i da se skine od smeenje ako objektivno mu dokazete deka na "geografskata teritorija" Makedonija lugeto se isti kako vas... mislam... toa ti e kako koga ke zastanat eden crnec i belec i ke kazes ovie i dvata se belci... e taka idat tie raboti kaj vas... Znaci sto e fintava... vie se razlikuvate od site drugi na balkanive kako sto crncite se razlikuvaat od belcite. [^] Aj zbogum.|
|Freddy||I don't care what you think about Bulgarians and Bulgaria....if you wanna feel better by calling us "tatars" and believing that Bulgaria is poorer than Fyr Macedonia then I don't give a damn...but don't come and ask us for help when one day the shiptars F**K your ass off...unfortunately for you this day will came very very soon ....and while you are continuing to play with us the big bad "tatars" the shiptars are preparing your graves...for me it's just a game I live 500 km. away from FYR Macedonia /na Crnoto More/ and the things that happen down there are just pics from the News...AS for you however this is your future!!! P.S.I had the chance to came accross a paper article in a MK paper....I could not stop laughing about how uneducated or probably misleading your politicians and journalist are!!! They are talking about entry in NATO in 2007!!! - IMPOSIBILE!Why?First you are in a package with Albania and it DEFINITELY WILL NOT be ready by 2006/when you shoud receive an invitation/!NATO will NEVER accept a state where less then 8 years ago there was a kind of civil war!!!It will never accept a state where there is a potential risk for near future war conditions!Why aren't your politicions telling you that the earliest date MK could become a member is 2009?!?! P.P.S.Macedonia in the EU by 2010?!?Excuse me!!!?2015-2017 is more likely!Even Croatia that's 200 times better off, will have difficulties getting ready by 2009 and most say 2010 is the more likely date!!! Getting in the EU is not like entering the rich states' club!You won't become rich immediately it will just help you go this way but it's not a magic pill!!! If I were your PM I would work to decrease the unemployment of 40%!!!How are you living with 40% nevraboteni???Bulgaria has 12% and that is still high for the EU standard...we have to bring it down to 8% by 2007 when we will enter the EU!!! But hay continue lesening your complexes and waiting someone to help you and you will end really bad!|
|Ceki||Misirkov dal si ja procital ti ova knjiga "The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region, C.500-700". Ako mojs da kazis na brzina sto pisuva, kakvi dokazi prikazuva, i taka napred. Ili ako znajs nekade nekoj link kade e napisano nesto za ta knjiga. Interesna mi e sto e publicirana od Cambridge. Plus i jas slusnav deka postojit edna knjiga kade pisuvat deka bil Justinjan "sloven". Mislam deka e ceska knjiga, i deka e sega vo viena. Ova e interesno posto toj ziveese skoro 50 i pojke godini pred doseluvanjeto na slovenite. A ako go gledame negoviot tatko Justin( ako e eden e i drugiot "sloven") onda e to skoro 100 godini pred "oficijalnoto" doseluvanje na "slovenite" na ovie prostori. I plus faktot deka bese car, moze da go demantira to deka dojde do naseluvanje na slovenite. Nekoj studenti sakaja da odat vo viena da barat da ja vidat ta knjiga. Ama to e se sto znam, nimi ne gi znam za zal. Samo go slusnav toa.|
|Freddy||Ha 99,99% of the historians agree that the slavs DID exist...a single crappy book doesn't proove them wrong! If you wanna read a book : "How are the Macedonians" there is a banner that appears on THIS FORUM from time to time to amazon where you could by it...it's by an english guy I think...|
|Ceki||Crappy book? Have you read it? I havent and i dont judge it yet, cos of that.
And it is not just one "crappy" book. All "south slavs" in 19th century thought of themselves to be descendats of Ilyrians. From Slovenians to serbians, and Macedonians looked for their ancestors in ... well ... Macedonians.
quote:We are fine, and you?
|Thunder from down under||caikoski od kurajca bese, i kako so rece nekoj i kurov da ne e bugarin|
|DJ_SHEMA||Why are you so stupid? Macedonia at the time when VMRO was formed was under turks. The turkish establishment allowed no universities or any other kind of higher education. Less educated the people, less resistance they will show was the turkish rule. Any kind of activity that was undertaken for the liberation of Macedonia was considered anti-goverment movement and was punished with "surgun", or death. Does that give you a hint why our Macedonian heroes couldn't organize, collect weapons, and gather in Macedonia freely? Does that explain why the Macedonian founders of VMRO were educated in Sofia and spoke and wrote bulgarian well? Now dumbshit, before you say another stupid thing on here, answer this. If we are one nation, one tradition, one history, why in the fuck would all those people fought for the liberation of Macedonia? Not for joining Macedonia toward bulgaria, but for free, independent, sovereign country. Why was Gjorce Petrov assasined by the bulgarian police? Why? The Ilinden uprising was not fought by our grand-grandparents for joining Bulgaria, but for a FREE MACEDONIA. Sloboda ili SMRT was their moto, an for that cause they shed blood. Have you read the Krushevo manifest, it says FREE MACEDONIA? Before you go accuse somebody of brainwashing, ask yourself, have you been brainwashed perhaps? How all of a sudden from a tatar, you became related to Macedonia? Here, let us take an independent source, CIA fact book, afterall, CIA should know the best, right? Intro for Bulgaria taken from the CIA fact book states: The Bulgars, a Central Asian Turkic tribe, merged with the local Slavic inhabitants in the late 7th century to form the first Bulgarian state. In succeeding centuries, Bulgaria struggled with the Byzantine Empire to assert its place in the Balkans, but by the end of the 14th century the country was overrun by the Ottoman Turks. Bulgaria regained its independence in 1878, but having fought on the losing side in both World Wars, it fell within the Soviet sphere of influence and became a People's Republic in 1946. Communist domination ended in 1990, when Bulgaria held its first multiparty election since World War II and began the contentious process of moving toward political democracy and a market economy while combating inflation, unemployment, corruption, and crime. In case the comunist that brainwashed YOUR brain did not tell you the name of your tribe, I ll help you, it starts with a T.|
|boyan_yu||Frist I should say something with all my heart with the risk of being banned - backagain, 369again or whatever you are called - I LOVE YOU. Frankly you said most of the things I had in mind. I did mean to use the facts stated in the books published by VMRO, but still you said about enought. DJ_SHEMA - you say that turish government suppresed you so that the so colled "macedonians" had no chance of developing educational system. ok then - do you know why serbs had better conditions than bulgarians during this slavery - they were firther away from the captial - as the macedonian region. if there were such thing as macedonians, why didn't you develop educational system which you didn't have while you had better chances than us. We did considering the fact that all turkish armies were settled in the area of trakia and mizia? how could the bulgarians there prosper and the bulgarians in macedonia didn't. I have an answer - then the whole people gather to do something they organize it in the center. that may not make sense to you but it is a matter of strategy. and the center is in Trakia. yours center, our center. Moreover I still do not understand why you do not answer what 369again wrote about that forum in Skopije? Or that is another TABU topic in the state of Macedonia - all topic that might contradict the main stream should be banned. doesn't that sound like misrepresentaion of the facts or am I wrong? And, by the way, the organization in western Trakiq was called in a similar way as VMRO? Does that mean that the people there are a different people? I am not and I am born there. You are not so stop calling other stupid. Denying history stubbronly does not make you smarter, only blinder.|
If to make a historical argument you need facts,then to make a dialogue to need to argue the points you disagree with,with the person who made them.
Now kindly extract the sentence where I state ANYTHING having to do with the region in PIRIN.
Thank you for mentioning Metaxas.I wonder what facts you are refering to.My granfather was an officer in Metaxa's army,and my friend's granfather was the chief justice in the supreme court of Greece at the time.(My granfather's name is the same as mine so you can look it up in your "fact book".
As for Metaxas you may or may not know that he was a German leaning figure in Greek politics.However he decided that during WW2 the winning side was going to be the aliance and not the axis.At the same time Bulgaria was under the influence of the Germans.
This automatically meant that Greece and Bulgaria were members of conflicting alliances.The Germans in order to appease the Bulgarians had promised them a San Stefano border regime.As such the Germans after defeating the Greek army allowed the Bulgarians to administer the provinces of Macedonia and Thrace in Greece.
On the other hand Metaxas' fixed policy was to keep clear the coridor connecting Greece and it's traditional ally to the north Serbia.Any development that would drive a wedge between Greece and Serbia was looked upon as a hostile act to Greek interests.
As a result the Bulgarians were trying to entrench their administrative power over the whole of Macedonia and were promoting the idea that all slavs in the macedonian region we're Bulgarians,while the Greeks we're arguing that the Slavs in Greece and in Vardarska Banovina were an independent nation of Macedonian-Slavs not related to the Bulgarian nationality.
This same policy was inherited by the Greek Comunist party during the civil war.
The byproduct of this policy is evident even today where Bulgaria argues that slavs living in the R.O.M. are Bulgarians,where as Greece argues they are an independant nation of slavs.
All this is well and good but what is your point in bringing up Metaxas?
I clearly suggested that a picture does not solve the complexity of the question concerning the cultural links between Bulgarians and yourselves.If a picture is enough then what would be your reaction if I supply this site with a picture of thousands of Greeks in the street in the center of Bitola being expelled? That Greeks lived in Bitola,so what would that prove?
The answer to your question is: A Bulgarian,specifically Boyan Yu.
|n/a||Well Legal eagle,
That depends on which one of my posts you're refering to.
Do you mean the posts I addressed to you,or in general?
|dejan||You just confirmed that it was a Bulgarian who started this dispute. You confirmed it in this thread, which means that you have confirmed that 'a' Bulgarian started started it many years ago. No i didn't know that boyan, maybe because it isn't true. I cannot believe this. How dare you, the both of you, come into a forum that is full of Macedonians and tell us what we are and what we arn't! You know, i am really sorry of your lack of history, but that doesn't mean you have to attack smaller countries and tell the people where they are originally from. Have you know shame in what you do? Do you not feel any shame in those hearts! I cannot understand how you have no shame or self pity in what you both are doing in this thread! I feel for you two, i really do. It makes me feel slightly upset about you two, knowing that you probably do not have a life, so you have to join the group of Bulgarians, preaching to the Macedonians. Acting like you people know everything. This is how world wars are started you dolts! You should feel very embarrassed and ashamed inside yourself!!!! This is the first time that i have ever read anything like this! I never knew that these sort of tensions existed between Macedonia and Bulgaria. It makes me extremely sad knowing that there are people like you that spoil young boys dreams of knowing where he comes from!!!! I hope you are both HAPPY AND PLEASED thank you very much, you just managed to degrade a young boy to complete pity(towards you of course) No wonder why we always ban you, because of the shit you say in these forums. Fuck off you idiots. Stop coming into our forum and telling us who we fucking are. Because honestly, we don't care, we don't care anymore. Go and harrass Romania or Serbia that they are Bulgarians. Fucking cock tards:@ Sorry that you have no social lives, and that you have to go onto the internet to actually 'talk' to people. Or 'communicate' Have fun living out your lives telling others where they are from. Oh btw, you didn't mention anything about this link!http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bu.html|
First after seeing the CIA site that you wanted me to see I did.I don't get it what are you getting to.It's the file concerning Bulgaria.Are you refering to the fact that your country is not listed as Bulgaria? I'm not saying that it is but the Republic of Cyprus is an independent country,but it doesn't chenge the fact that citizens of that country are Greek,what does that prove?
As for being ashamed,I don't think you understand that what we are discussing hear as irritating to you as it may be is not just limited to this dialogue.It's an international political conflict that invloves all the countries of the southern Balkans.
1)For example the acceptance of Albanians as equals in your motherland will make the difference between stability within this country and its relations with Albania and some Kosovo republic if it ever actually happens.
2)The conflict between the Serbian church and yours could create religious tensions with Serbia far into the future,where by they will consider your church (along with all the other Orthodox churches)a schism.That would in effect mean you fall in love with some Orthodox person not of your nationality a wedding in one of your churches wouldn't be recognised in any other Orthodox church.
3)The name issue with Greece must be resolved because Greece is a member of the European Union and soon so will Cyprus.That means when time comes to enter the union (the only hope for this country's existence)ROM will be blocked by two vetos from two EU countries.Turkey hasn't entered the union in over 15 years of trying and only had Greece as a problem.
4)Your arguments with Bulgaria must be settled because Bulgaria will also be in the EU by 2007 and will not accept any anti-Bulgarian positions from a country wishing to enter the EU.
Just to give you an example here,there is already a commitee of historians Greek and Bulgarian who are meeting on a regular basis trying to eliminate texts in history books that makes these countries students feel hostility to eachother.In all history books in Greece and Bulgaria Alexander and the Macedonians of antiquities will be treated as Greeks,and King Samuel will be treated as a Bulgarian.Romania and Serbia are soon to join this commitee and so is Albania. What does this mean ,that your childen will be learning the opposite of what all the other children in the balkans.
If these issues are not resolved how can you hope for a better future for your people? It certainly won't happen by telling people to "Fuck off" and leave you alone.That might work in this ng but not in international relations.
As for the dreams of a child,you know that it is dangerous creating dreams in your mind that conflict with the dreams of others.
|dejan||It's the cold heart truth to all Bulgarians Russian. Their fault if they do not have their own culture and language. But Macedonians are nice people to have allowed that long ago, for Bulgarians to acquire the alphabet and culture. There are not such people of Bulgarians, and if Macedonian was larger with its former territories then we would have had more of a chance of putting you down. Souless tartars, you have no heart and soul if you enjoy criticising another nation!|
|highlander||Se vozele vo voz vo isto kupe Makedonec, Rusinka so kerka i, i bugar... vleguva vozot vo tunel... i se slusa shamar "SPLASSS"... Izleguva vozot od tunelot i rusinkata razmisluva:"...nekoj od ovie dvajcata izgleda sakase da ja fati kerka mi za gaz... ama dobro e... mu sibna shamar... nema da bide orospija..." Kerka i razmisluva: "... izgleda nekoj od ovie dvajcava sakase da ja fati majka mi za gaz... ama gledam verna mu e na tatko mi... mu zalepi shamar... dobro e..." bugarov: "...Ovoj Makedonecov izgleda fati nekoja od ovie dvete za gaz... pa taa pomislila deka sum jas... pa mene mi zalepi shamar...". A Makedonecov razmisluva:"...Eh da mi e uste nekoj tunel da vlezeme... da mu ja opnam na ovoj ciganov uste nekoj shamar..."|
|n/a||Let's look at the previous names of VMRO VMORO (Vatreshna Makedono-Odrinska Revolutiona Organizatia)1905-1919 TMORO (Taina Makedono-Odrinska Revolutiona Organizatia)1902-1905 BMORK (Balgarski Makedono-Odrinski Revolutionen Komitet)1893-1902 WOW, would you look at that, were the leaders of the organisation crazy...they wanted to deliver the population of Macedonia and the one near Odrin...why, well let's see, maybe because this population was the same, BULGARIANS! Answer those question 1)Why are almost half of the organization's leaders not even coming from Macedonia but from Old Bulgaria (Chernopeev, Lerinski, Assenov...) 2)Why have the leaders of the organization said more than once that they were Bulgarians. 3)Why did almost all leaders of the organization finish bulgarian high schools, universities, military schools... 4)Why were all the bases, weapons and financial facilties, newspapers of the organizations in Bulgaria. 5)Why are 99% of the documnets of VMRO AKA 100% of the real documents written in litterary bulgarian language. 6)Why were a big part of the leaders of VMRO Bulgarian officer in the army. (Sarafov, Venedikov, Protogerov, Boiadjiev, Petrov...) ... I could go on but what for I am going to be banned again|
|dejan||They have left, the Bulgarians always come here say what they say and leave. Or they see that they don't stand a fighting chance, because we are stronger:p so they leave in self pity and shame:( I feel for you people....not really. Leave us alone.|
|369||Maybe you don't know what is a forum, here is the definition in case: a medium of open discussion or expression of different ideas. A long time ago, I posted a thread called "Ethnicity of Macedonia (Aegean, Vardar and Pirin),of course because I was provocating AKA saying to much truth, I was banned. Then the answers came, many were laughing because I couldn't respond to their ""proven"" theories...how do you want me to respond when you ban or freeze the profile of every Bulgarian on the forum. I am pretty sure that Byzantine and Boyan aren't scared of your theories, they just went to kill themselves after hearing all the bullshit coming from you and thinking that you people have bulgarian blood. I said in my previous thread the follow "Bojidar Dimitrov (Well-known bulgarian historian)will give 100 000 EUR if somebody shows him an authentic document written in Macedonian before WW2." A guy called Thunder from down under responded the follow "Give this hint "Parteni Zografski (1818-1875)" to you educated friend and tell him to stick his diploma and his 100,000 euros up his ass" If that Parteni Zografski really existed, why didn't the Skopian historians or OMO Ilinden show this document, it would of giving you a lot of advantages. 1) World recognition and maybe recognition of your country by it's constitutional name 2) Bulgarian historians would have looked like dumb asses because their theories about Macedonia would have being wrong 3) 100 000 EUR would have helped a lot the renovation of Macedonia's historical sites ...|
You know my kind so well it took you who knows how many posts just to figure out my nationality,right?
You don't hate people because of their origins but this does not keep you from calling people morons because they disagree with you,or call Bulgarians Gypsees, right?
I'm getting the impresion here that a whole international political storm is brewing (rubish?) and you guys are treating it as if you can afford to ignore it.
As for avoiding questions,why don't you ask any question you like and I will answer,(based on original texts,and on history books published ONLY by Oxford,Stanford and Cambridge)except I won't be as juvenile as to use the CIA as a historical basis!
|dejan||Uh......the CIA is a major powerful organization in this world. Because of them USSR collapsed and other Communist countries. Find my a link from cambridge or other prestigious Uni's around the world that can support your issue.|
quote:Byz, I didn't expect a proud greek to have a Roman nickname. I never called the bulgarians gypsies, and why do you really care so much about them? Now, since you are such a gentleman, why are you using subtle provocations with the juvenile refference. You are saying that CIA doesn't have proper inteligence? And, again, the link was for the bulgarian posters. Why do you feel the need to stick your nose in all matters? Are you sure you are greek? Here is a link for you on your uncle Metaxas http://forums.vmacedonia.com/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=2476
first things first,
1)Byzantio the name:
Old name of the geographic region to be name Konstantinoupoli.Named after the Ionian colony who's king's name was Byzantas (B pronounced V)
2)The Byzantine empire is born when the Romans overrun by the German tribes shifts its capital to the Greek speaking part of the empire by Konstantine who names the city after himself in Greek to be known as the city of Konstantine (Konstantinoupoli)
3)After the reign of emperor Heracleos in the mid 600's the official language of the empire is changed to Greek which continued untill the fall of the Byzantine empire in 1453.
You must know that after the Greek revolution against the Turks the Greeks were rallying around the idea "Megali Idea"(traslated to the Great Idea) of reestablishing the Byzantine territories and reinstate Konstantinople as the religious capital of the new state.
As they are not with me at the moment I will provide (as I promised in my previous post)the leading book on Byzantine history published by the University of Stanford.
This empire was the only Christian empire the world has seen and the only to last over 1000 years.It merged Greek and Roman cultures.In my mind there is no greater empire ever recorded in world history and thus the name "Byzantine".
2) As far as the CIA is concerned my provocztions are not subtle.The CIA never existed as a true central inteligence agency.Throughout their existence during the cold war they depended on two other agencies to provide them with information:
a)The British MI (MI5 - MI6) were the ones feeding the Americans information concerning affairs of the eastern block.
b)The Israely Mossad was providing information concerning the middle east.
-Evidence of this was the fact that as far back as WW2 the Brits were the ones who alerted the Americans that Hitler was building a bomb.It was the Brits who made contact with the German scientists and linked them to the Americans.
-Evidence of this is the fact that the Americans were taken by surprise by the attack on the Americans in Beirut from which the Americans left.
-Evidence of this in more current times was the fact that the Vietkong was ready to overun Saigon and the Americans found out too late and abandoned the friendly Vietnamese forces on their way to save their own hides.
-The most recent lack of trained field operatives most indicative of the CIA was the fact that their contractors (MRPI)were caught red handed by the "TIGRI" (one of which is a very good friend of mine)in Arachinevo.Why Georgievski (that asshole if you don't mind)let them go instead of making an international incident is beyond me.(Had it been in Greece we would have burned the US embassy to the ground).Whatever the case it was proven throughout international think tanks that the Americans themselves had supported the rebelion and had financed it from the collapse of the financial Pyramids in Albania.
The MRPI is a contractor (merceneries) who the CIA hires to do their dirty work (Bosnia,Kosovo,Sierra Leone,Liberia,etc.)What were they doing in Arachinevo during the gunfight? hunting wild boar?(doesn't say in the CIA website does it?
3)There are no links for Bulgarian or Madagascarian posters.There are issues,and whoever has something with any historical credibility to add should be welcomed.(be it irritating or not)
Furthermore I've lived in Skopje for 4 years and in Sofia 5 years.I understand the Bulgarian arguments the sincere ones and the not so sincere better that you do,and I understand your arguments better than they do.
4)As for the "link" it's what I was refering to as indirect evidence.Personally I would have used the document issued by the Greek government and not interpretations of documents.
All being said and done the document is pretty solid.I know the period in question quite well both historically and from accounts of people who lived it.
If you look into it deeper you'll find that the English had been very emphatic in warning Metaxas not to trust the said minority as it posed a danger of supporting Bulgarian interests.While it wasn't true Bulgarians had agents all over the Kostursco area to give Greeks the impression that this was indeed a Bulgarian minority (a standard Bulgarian position).So when Metaxas in his paranoia accepted this minority as being dangerously Bulgarian leaning he treated them like the enemy (which was exactly what the Bulgarians wanted).It was one of the most succesfull moments of the Bulgarian foreign office.As you may remember historically Bulgaria and Greece were bitter enemies throughout the century.Greece was simply not going to tolerate any Bulgarian minority in Greece.
You're right to scream at the highest tone of your voice that Slav -Macedonian and Bulgarian is not the same but the Bulgarians were better organised throughout the 19th century than you guys were.Proof of this is the fact that they persuaded Hitler to give them Administrative power over all of northeastern part of my country and your country as well.Their mistake was choosing the losing side.
Am I sure I'm Greek? Yes.Ama toa ne znachi deka ne vi rasbiran koga pishuvate na vashiot jazik!
quote:Yeah man, who da fuck cares??????? Go get laid find some 5 dolar hooker.
|Thunder from down under||Bizantine, i have a Colliers Enciclopedia at home and i was looking at it before on about bulgaria and it says that the bulgars are of asian-turkic origin and khazars they come in the region in the fifth century and they adopted the christianity in 864,most probably they were muslims or budist before that it doesnt say in the book check it out Colliers encyclopedia book no4 page 698 when i got more time i will post more from the book, also strelechas a britanica he will look on that as well i belive bulgars got a lot to hide from the world and i understand why they do what they do sooner or later the world will find out that bulgars were learning from us and copying from us from the time the moved next door to us thousands of years later|
Nothing personal,but one thing I dislike in your generation is the short attention span.History is not a soundbite to be taken in over a reading of a few minutes.If you like soundbites or video clips stick to MTV!
And one more thing,try to actually read the text:
"Byzantium, society and state" Stanford Press!!!!!!!!!!! just look it up dude!
And what posts am I ignoring now Dejan?
|Thunder from down under||
quote:kaj ne ke se nerviras so lesperi kako toj ljockata, ovie ozonce so uzda treba da gi zapnis i da im kazis kaj ima voda za pienje, sami se mrazat megu sebe,tie so se od albanija gi mrazat tie na kosovo sto se ,tie na kosovo gi mrazat tie vo albanija............ znam jas sto treba za niv, da sum samo minister za zdravsto ,koren nemat da ostanit od niv za tri meseci
I don't know if the encyclopedia will do the job.Try going into google or Yahoo and searching for:
U.S.Library of Congress Country Study - Bulgaria
I think in a quick look you'll find the basics of what you're looking for.
[quote]Originally posted by Thunder from down under
Bizantine, i have a Colliers Enciclopedia at home and i was looking at it before on about bulgaria and it says that the bulgars are of asian-turkic origin and khazars they come in the region in the fifth century and they adopted the christianity in 864,most probably they were muslims or budist before that it doesnt say in the book check it out Colliers encyclopedia book no4 page 698 when i got more time i will post more from the book, also strelechas a britanica he will look on that as well i belive bulgars got a lot to hide from the world and i understand why they do what they do sooner or later the world will find out that bulgars were learning from us and copying from us from the time the moved next door to us thousands of years later [/quot
|dejan||My generation, yeah you're right, short attention span. Oh well.....what you going to do hey? Not your fault you had to adopt another countries alphabet. My dad told me that Bulgaria uses a mix of Macedonian and Russian Cyrillic words in their alphabet. Seriously get over this, you are more unintelligent then the other people that i know. Reason being: you come in here and start a stupid discussion that is false and expect us to agree with you? What's the point of all this anyway? What's the point of you trying to tell us where we come from (in your mind)There is no point in it. So just leave.|
|dejan||Oh you're Greek? Then stop telling us that we're Bulgarian. 'mature historical conversation' yeah right, not possible when we believe in opposite things.|
quote:I za minister ke ja sredime, vaka ke napravish :) ke dojdish u mkd sega za izborite i ke donirash nekoja para, so toa avtomatski ti sleduva ministersko mesto, u najlosh sluchaj zamenik minister. Stanuvash minister i belki ti ke gi sredish ovie sho vikash treba so uzdi da gi nosish na poenje, ama ne e samo toa tuku treba i toa zelnoto (nie go vikame zabunjak) da go trgnish oti mozat da se zadavat[:D]
|graf||Byzantine, you should be proud to be a Grrk Turk. Hay Thunder maybe we can can cheap KEBAB from him ahahahha|
|graf||yeah CAN U ANSWER US !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!|
quote:You are extremely stupid... Read the first paragraph you retard! gosh! The first paragraph and that should shed some light on your dark brain! Everything else you wrote was just.......odd. I couldn't understand, even though your english is good. Why don't you just leave us alone? Please, for the love of god! Leave us alone! We are not doing anything to you, so stop telling us where we come from, because it is a loaed of bullshit, which has been drilled in into your brains from your grandparents! and your parents and everyone else in that country! argh! Another thing, Cyrill and Methodius came to Ohrid and created the Cyrillic alphabet. Oh wait.....they were Bulgarians right? No sorry, hate to crack open that nutshell you have been living in. Because your people back then didn't have an alphabet (deeply sorry about this, not your fault after all) you had to borrow from other countries. Like i said, it is not your fault for your countries lack of history. You are not to blame so no need to make up history. Becaues history is something that can be proven, and your 'made up' history cannot. Sorry. Now i know that you'll reply with yet another long post...explaining some crap that is just all in your head...blah blah. So i might as well just keep on telling you the same thing, until you stop living through your grandpa's mind, eyes, and his way of thinking.
|dejan||I'm sorry, i don't think i made myself clear in my previous. It is really not your fault byzantine, that your country lacks in history. It truly isn't your fault, so please, stop making history up. Just sit down, and listen to me. It is not your fault for you countries lack of history. Do not go to any further extent about making up history and then claim that Cyrill and Methodius were bulgarian. Because then we say HEY THEN THAT MEANS THAT EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS WORLD IS BULGARIAN! HAHA. No i don't think we'll be hearing that, after you have read this(take from cia world fact book): "The Bulgars, a Central Asian Turkic tribe, merged with the local Slavic inhabitants in the late 7th century to form the first Bulgarian state. In succeeding centuries, Bulgaria struggled with the Byzantine Empire to assert its place in the Balkans, but by the end of the 14th century the country was overrun by the Ottoman Turks. Bulgaria regained its independence in 1878, but having fought on the losing side in both World Wars, it fell within the Soviet sphere of influence and became a People's Republic in 1946" Yes...don't comitt suicide over this. Like i said, it is not your fault. So don't blame yourself. So please, stop continuing your made up history. Now...after reading that, i hope you have a different perspective. Deeply sorry, it is not your fault ok? Well, i better be off, more Bulgarian patients on my list. ta ta.|
quote:Da trebat discount. Isto ke platimen so cash !!!!
|dejan||Are the bulgarian women sexy? *shudders* ugh.... Compare, Macedonian women or Bulgarian. Macedonian women are dead sexy, especially this girl in my ancient history class and drama!:p|
Just a quick comment:
1)I said that credible historical information can be found only at credible historical institutions.
These are not Greek universities and they are not afraid of anyone.
2)I suggested to a source which is for adults.If you think an encyclopedia will do the job for analytical research why do you think they publish specialized books on these topics?
|Ceco_Bg||zdraveite na vsichki... The post has been edited by the Administrator. Only Macedonian or English language is allowed on this forum. Using other languages, propaganda, insults will result in a ban.|
Do niakage i ti polsvash metodologiata na xora koito kritikouvash.Primerno te pokazvat edna snimka ot edin Makedonski sobir v (mislia che beshe Petrich)s niakoi hora koito nosat Makedonsko zname.Ti protivorechesh tova neshto s edna po stara snimka (na koito as niamam dostap)na hora s osmivki kogato Balgarskata armia beshe v Skopje.
Kak moje da govorime za istoriata kogato polsvame snimki ot nezavisi kade.Ti moje da kazvash che snimkata v Pirinska e edin sobir organiziran i platen ot Serbski OMO Illinden.Te po sashtia nachin mogat da kazvat che tvoita snimka pokazva straxa na okupiran narod koito posreshtna noviot si okupator,nali?
Sladvashtia vopros e samoznanie (pravilna duma?).Smisal kak razlichni hora vijdat sebe si.Ako Makedontsi se rechili pred neopredelen vreme che ne zavisi ot koia prichina se dosta razlichni za da prestavliavat edin drug narod koi moje da zabrani tozi chustvie?
Balgarite v Makedonia:
Da,prav si che Balgari sreshnat mnogo discriminatsia v Skopje.Daje predpolagam che vsichki jiveashti v Balkanski polostrov znaiat za jenata koiato beshe arestuvena zashtoto e kazala v Makedonia po pat za Skopjia che beshe Balgarka i che ne poznavashe Makodontsi v Pirinski kraishta.
Poznavam mnogo stari hora ot severna Garcia koito ziviax v region posnato na vas kato Lerinsko i Kostursko.Te hora ne vizdat sebe si kato Balgari.I tova predi vreme na Tito.Znachi tova chustvie koito ne e ni Balgarsi ni Sarbski i definitivno ne Garcki seshestuva i ne biva nie ot ne zavisi koia gledna tochka da go onishtujime s baza na niakoi knigi za Balkanska istoria koito ne se tochni v makedonski uchilishta no ne se i chak beton i v nashite strani (as sam Grk).
Ne e lesen istoricheski vapros.I sas sigurnost niama da bade reshen ako ne rasbirame i mnenieta na drugata strana.(osobeno v tozi saita kadeto hora ne se i chak nai obrasovani).
|OooOo||hah .. koj gi banira Bugarite? Oni se nashi brakja!!! Ostavete gi na mira!|
quote:Vidov ova leto kolku ste ponapred. Mojata prva poseta na Bugarija i se zakolnav deka NIKOGASH POVEKJE nema da stapnam tamu. Neznam tie lugje shto odele vo Bugarija do sega na odmor i shto vikale deka bilo ubavo. Jas ne vidov shto ubavini ima tamu. I napravete si go patot od Aerodromot vo Sofija do granica so Makedonija. Povekje dupki nemam videno ni vo nekoe planinsko selo vo Makedonija, a ne na toj vash takanarechen "avtopat". Katastrofa!
quote:I don't actualy get your question? You ask why MANY of the people in Macedonia are not of bulgarian nationality? Saying this do you automaticaly presume that the other part of these MANY are with Bulgarian nationality? Anyway, in the Republic of Macedonia thare isn't anybody with Bulgarian nationality. Or, their number is very small. According to the last years cenzus about 65% are Macedonian by nationality, 23% Albanians and the others are Turks, Serbs, Roma, Vlahs.
|Thunder from down under||if you are confused about some surnames in Macedonia, that is becouse Macedonians we force to ,during wars and occupations, cousin of my mother had a serbian surname during one of the wars and was a serbian soldier but later he changed his surname back,some of the macedonians still have the old surnames that have been changed, also Bulgarians come in the 7 century in the balkans, macedonians were in the balkans long longggggggggggg time before the bulgarians|
|Legal-Eagle||Before any of you go on any further with this healthy debate you all need to have a concise meaning of the term "Nationality". I think this might clear some of the misunderstandings that may arise.|
|graf||boyan_yu abre sto e ova !!! First thing your question does not make any sense. It should like this "why do YOU think that many of the people living in the state bulgarian are not part of the Macedonia nationality? " WE are macedonians. Why is it that every other country wants this nation??? THe reason why is because we have history, culture and a belief. THat is why so countries want us cause they do not have these assets.|
|boyan_yu||First of all, Legal-Eagle is right - we should set the term "Nationality". In the history books we read that that is a group of people with common language, culture, historical and political heritage. So I think that in order to answer my question we should discuss each and every of those points. Maverik - I DO mean that MANY of the people in the state of Macedonia are bulgarians and especially those in the eastern part. That is what I argue about. And I am ready to defend my point with examples from international resourses. Thunder from down under - I do not know a time that the state of Macedonia was occupied by Bulgaria. But hell I know - after all, I may be reading "propaganda" books, can I! If we need a relayable source of information, we should ask the people how were born when the macedonian nationality was created. Ask any Macedonian old woman and she will tell you stories. I heard one personally - how the Macedonian authrities, led by serbians, prohibited any Bulgarian symbols. Therefore the people separated the Bulgarian flag in three and each part was hiden in the cloths of a member of the family in order to be preserved. Ask them. graf - No one in bulgaria needs anything in Macedonia. Many of us curse you for denying historical facts, but still we need nothing from you. All we have - you have, because it is the same. Besides your country is way back in iconimical and technological sence, so you can only minimize our advance.|
|n/a||Hi fellows, I'm sincerely glad of your optimismus for the history of Macedonian!!! Of course, I'm ABSOLUTELY sure that none of you would believe me, but after all I'll say it! Dear Maverik, ("According to the last years cenzus about 65% are Macedonian by nationality, 23% Albanians and the others are Turks, Serbs, Roma, Vlahs.") that's really very good. You just need to know more about the history!!! So, a few years after the artificial RECREATION of the Macedonia by the communists (thats aproximitely in the 60's of the XX century) , INDEPEDNDENT french cenzus shows that 75% of the population of the new country has a Bulgarian self-identification. I really would like to know how the MAJORITY of the nation has dissapeared for 50 years and in the last cenzus there is no Bulgarians. To all others, as I said before, I'm absolutely sure that you won't believe me and that's normal. I'll tell you why. That's the purpose. The purpose of the creators of the state of Macedonia was accomplished. You deny your past! Now you are Macedonians, because you are self-realized as Macedonians! But you are not these Macedonians of Alexander THE GREAT (in fact, I am named after to him, so I have to be Macedonian :))) It is practically impossible for your country to be the Great Macedonia after 3000 years!!! Most of your grandparents are Bulgarians, but who cares??? We don't need you! I don't need you! I just sorry about you! I hope that the smarter of you will try to understand me. Please, first try to find a book from an independent author, read about your history and then curse me if I'm wrong! I know that after some years Bulgaria will be in the European union and then you will need us. And then will be brothers again, but now... you all will say that that's a lie and so on and so on!!! Believe in what you want to believe, it's just for you, my fellows!!! And in the end, when I was in school one of my history teacher had a second cousin "Macedonian". When Macedonia had been created just two sisters had been seperated! And now the grandson of the first sister is Bulgarian and the grandson of the second sister is Macedonian and has nothing in common with Bulgaria!!! I really hope that you will try to believe to the TRUTH!!!|
|Strelec||mlatenje prazna slama! ke pomine izvesno vreme i TUP... ete ti nekoe bugarce ke dojde i ke gi iznesuva "argumentite" koi sto gi ucel od negovite skolski knigi... pojalova rabota NEMA... site svetski vremeplovi od vtorata svetska vojna, megju poznacajnite datumi go istaknuvaat priklucuvanjeto na Bugarija na tretata oska... a bugarskite ucebnici pisuvaat deka bugarite dosle vo Makedonija od humani pobudi, t.e. kako osloboditeli... i sega koja mi e poentata na pisuvanjevo? zosto ova go potenciram? zatoa sto smetam deka na sekoj onoj koj sto saka da govori za makedonsko-bugarskite odnosi, treba da mu se postavi nesto kako 'filter'... pa neka se izjasni dali bugarite bile vo Makedonija osloboditeli ili okupatori... i dokolku e nekoj ovde dojden so stav deka bugarite vo Makedonija dosle kako osloboditeli, mislam deka e bespolezno da ni otekuvaat prstive mavajki po tastaturite i do nedogled iznesuvajki argumenti i kontraargumenti koi sto nema ama bas nikakvi sansi nekogo da ubedat da si go smeni stavot... znachi Bojane, bez zaobikoluvanje i bez obidi da se izbegne direkten i ekspliciten odgovor (sto bi znacelo - bez filozofiranje), kazi go svojot stav vo odnos na ulogata na bugarskata vojska vo Makedonija za vreme na vtorata svetska vojna! istoto vazi i za alex9564!|
|ozonce||predlagam edan donacija vo kniga za bugarija!|
|boyan_yu||Strelec, first of all, during the Second World War, the bulgarian army entered the region Macedonia not from humanian moods, but as our own territory. Moreover, most of the army was going home because their families lived in the villages near Skopije. And not only in this war but in all others before that. But as you may know, there was no macedonian state at the time - the territory was part of Sarbiq. And nowhere in the archives, nowhere arround Europe you can find records for "Macedonian nationality". Later this was invented by serbian goverment in order to minimise the influence of Bulgaria over the bulgarian citizens there. I am not claiming that Macedonia does not have a right to exist - no. I say that there hasn't been no such thing as macedonians for the last 2500 years and there isn't now. There is a video tape from the second world war, actually one of the few of its kind, showing the moment when bulgarian army entered Macedonia and its capital. People greeted the army from the very border. When a country is occupied people do not act like that. They do waht you did when Sarbiq went to a war to separate you from Bulgaria - you fought. I hope that everyone here can make the difference between a rose and gun on a video tape!!![?]|
quote:jas znam kako bi reagiral... ama (za zal) nemam orudie za takvo nesto!
|boyan_yu||why? You don't like my part of the (hi)story? Because,if you really need a tank we can give you (again).|
|n/a||So, just one sentence to Strelec. When the Bulgarian army entered it the REGION Macedonia, there is no MACEDONIAN nation!!! The real macedonian nation has extincted long long ago- 64 before Christ!!! How can you claim that this nation can be preserved for more than 2000 years without own country- that's very funny???? But I already told you- you're free to believe in what you want!!! Just try to see the truth!!! And I don't use Bulgarian textbooks, as you had supposed!!!|
quote:emi dobre! ajde vaka! koja bese ulogata na bugarskata vojska vo 'prostorot' Makedonija (a ne drzavata)... dali bugarite bea tuka za da ja okupiraat taa teritorija, ili za da ja oslobodat?
|Maverik||Abe majkata sto se slucuva ovde.
Strelec ubavo kaza, nema nema i op ke se pojavi nekoj bugarin sto misli deka nema sto ne znae i deka negovite podatoci se najtocni i posle dzabe ubeduvanje. Pa sleduvaat postojano istite ubeduvanja i prepirki.
Drugari Bugari, ako navistina sakate da diskutirate povelete i postavete gi svoite fakti, no, faktite da se izdrzani. Isto taka ostavete gi vregjanjata nastrana, mislam deka i bez niv ke moze da se razbereme.
Znaci pocnuvajki od pocetok, da odgovram na Bojan.
quote:Cudna rabota drugar, no, i jas sum od istocna Makedonija, od Stip potocno, sum gi setal dosta prostranstvata na toj del na Makedonija i mozam da ti kazam deka barem dosega Bugarin tamu ne sum sretnal. Uste poveke sto sum bil i vo pirinskiot del vo Mestata kako Sandanski, Blagoevgrad, Petric, Melnik i red drugi. E ovde pak sretnav mnogu koi se smetaa za Makedonci. Drugo, ova mislam deka i porano go imam kazano vo nekoj post. Za vreme na vtorata svetska vojna mojot dedo e zatvoren od strana na Bugarite i e odnesen na makotrpna fizicka rabota nekade vo juzna Bugarija. Pritoa go gubi i sluhot. Ovde bi rekol deka ne e samo toj ednistvem slucaj tuku mnogu Makedonci bile podlozeni na vakov tretman od Bugarite za vreme na vojnata. Prasanjeto e dali navistina toa nekoj bi mu go napravil na sopstveniot narod???????? Ponatamu, ako Makedonija e navistina del od Bugarija, zosto za vreme na vtorata svetska vojna Bugarija ne ja "oslobodila" celosno????? Tuku naprotiv dozvolila delovi da potpadnat pod Italija, Albanija i Germanija? Vo ovoj period toa najlesno bilo ostvarlivo, no, sepak ne se slucilo????? Zosto????? Mozebi i Germancite ne smetale deka tie teritorii i pripagaat na Bugarija?
quote:Dobro, kazi go izvorot na informaciite za ovoj popis. Kniga ili internet link. I vnimavaj koga zboruvas za ovoa. Popis e proces koj se izvsuva so mnogu podgotovki, koj go opfaka celokupnoto naselenie na edna drzava ili teritorija, a da i najosnovno nesto, popisot ne go organizira koj ke mu tekne ili nekoja organizacija od koj znae kade, tuku drzavata kade se sproveduva istiot. Prviot oficijalen popis vo Makedonija e sproveden vo 1921 godina. Zboruvam za denesna Republika Makedonija, koja togas bila pod Srbija. Podatocite i od togas govorat deka dominantnoto naselenie e so makedonska pripadnost. Toa e vsusnost edno 25 godini pred doagjanenjeto na komunistite vo Bivsa Jugoslavija odnosno periodot koga tvrdis deka Makedonija bile izmislena. Ne ti e malku nelogicno toa? Makedonci da postojat vo 1921? Nema komunisti?
|dejan||Plus, kako dojdele Cyrill i Methodius vo Makedonija pret koj znae godini? A ?|
|boyan_yu||So Maverik, you say that there are many Macedonians in the Pirin region. But I have been there a lot of times and I have never met even a single man that claims to be Macedonian. My girlfriend is born in Blogoevgrad and knows quite well the people there. She does not know anyone, and I do mean ANYONE that identifies him/herself as Macedonian and frankly most of them are bored by you stating that they are part of some imaginary Macedonian nation. As you say that there are no Bulgarians in the state of Macedonia I can say that there are no Macedonians in Bulgaria. As for the statement that there were people in the region of macedomian that clamed to be "macedonians" in the 1920, thera are documents in the history museum of Berlin from the conference in San-stefano on 3 March 1878 that include counting of the population on the Bolkans. They wanted to separate the territories so that there will be only one nationality in every country. According to that count there were more than 75% of bulgarians in the regions of Mizia, Trakiq, Dobridja, MACEDONIA, some parts of easters Serbia, and some other little regions. Such thing as macedonian nation was not mentioned at all there. And you cannot possibly claim that there was any conspiration at all, because they counted the people according to what they said they were, not like the countings in macedonia were there is no option "Bulgarian". Why are you afraid of us? If you weren't afraid of us, you wouldn't hate us that much (Bulgarians). That is another proof you are bulgarians - you deny yourselves as we do. (By the way part of that was said by my girlfriend). As for dejan - koga barem sa bili Cyrill i Methodius vo Makedonija. At the time this territory was greek and nobody then claimed to be macedonian or an accessor of Fillip the Great, who actually is greek. But the language topic is for a whole another argument.|
|dejan||boyan_yu, you're different from the other Bulgarians that visit this forum..... I don't hate Bulgarians, i don't hate Greeks nor Serbians. You seem like an intelligent person, but i don't understand how us Macedonians, can be Bulgarians? I don't believe that there are not Macedonians in Blageovgrad. It sounds like a slavic name..... As far as i know, Macedonians are not afraid of Bulgarians, why should we? Who firstly started this dispute in the first place? That Macedonians were Bulgarians? Surely not a Macedonian. It would have had to be a Bulgarian that started it. It hurts me, slightly, when i see someone tell a Macedonian that he or she is Bulgarian. That's like saying to someone, leave your house, leave where you were born, leave all your possessions behind, or you will be killed. I only wish that all the countries surrounding Macedonia would put aside the disputes that have hindered the countries friendships to develop. (And i know that Macedonia would do the same)|
quote:And what are the people on this picture? Eskimos maybe? [img]http://www.omoilindenpirin.org/images/2003sandanski2.jpg[/img] Just for your information this picture is taken at the Commemmoration in Honour of Macedonian Hero Jane Sandanski, in Sandanski, April 20, 2003.
Your question is too difficult to answer with a few sentences.If we wanted to do it properly we would have to start from the current decade and go back fifty years at a time to monitor news paper articles,history books,secret service info that have been released,so that we can undertand the dynamic of how consiousness evolved.
If your up to this task,then be ready for at least months of debate on many issues per month.
Are you curious enough to start that kind of discusion?
quote:So, once again you are presenting facts that don't realy corespond to the the reality at that time. The treeaty of San Stefano was made between Rusia and Turkye, and Rusia being the winer in the war between them was making the conditions. Wanting to make their presence and influce felt in South Europe, aperently the best way was the creation of a Bulgarian state that streched to the Aegean in the south and as far to Ohrid in the west. With this making a new creation thta has never before egsisted as such in these teritories. The other powers like England and France didn't like the idea of Rusia having so much influence and because of that they organized the Berlin Treaty, just few months after San Stefano. With this I don't see how is Bulgaria connected to anything except realizing the plans of Rusia. Also as always in that times (and even now) these treaties were made so that the big powers can take care for their interests.
|Thunder from down under||
quote:mene ko aboridzani mi gledet
|Thunder from down under||there are only 2 kinds of bulgarians that come to this forum 1 . a smartasses 2. a stelth smartasses boyan i dont know how long you are going to stay on (2) with coments such as there are no macedonians in -Pirinska Makedonija|
Thunder from down under?
Give me a break!
The same question has been given by numerous scholars.If a picture is enough evidence for you to feel certain about a historical argument then maybe you should join a cult!They love pictures there.And when people disagree with you then just shout very loudly "stamp out satan".
No it wont persuade your oponents but it will block off their questions.
|dejan||When i went to Macedonia. You know, none of the young people there talked about these sort of things? Why? Because obviously they knew that it would result in an argument or they weren't interested. I am surprised, seeing people from Bulgaria, registering and then coming in here telling us who we are. Have you no shame?! Don't you have other things to do, that are better than trying to be some Bulgarian Patriot?!|
If I'm not mistaken Bojan asked a question with a historical content in a place set aside for historical arguments.Why should anyone be ashamed?
And as for your statement that no young people in Macedonia discuss these things,well I would have to disagree.I'm in Skopje once a month,and now especially with the Church dispute going on and the Tetovskiot Facultet it's what many people are talking about.
|dejan||Aha, and you expect me to believe what you just said? Oh look at this by the way.....http://www.novinite.com/newsletter/print.php?id=30678 Why does Bulgaria want an alcohol that's been in Macedonia (and some other countries i think) for a long time? Hmmmmmmm! Oh and look what we have here http://www.rferl.org/reports/balkan-report/ something interesting to read, that contradicts what you have mainly talked about in this pointless thread. That's taken from www.maknews.com|
I doubt that the Rakia argument will get you very far.After all don't forget that the Slovenians registered IVAR as their own invention! does this mean Slovenia has expansionist views too?
Try to separate business with history.
Secondly the treatment of the minority discussed in that article can easily be extended to your country.Remember that ther are over 7000 residents of the Republic of Macedonia which have Bulgarian passports and over 2000 that have Greek passports.And yet on the census these figures never came out.Why?
None of this however constitutes a historical argument.
quote:Ok......i just didn't understand what you are on about here? What do you mean extended to my country?
quote:I mean in the last census in the Republic of Macedonia did it include 7000 Bulgarians and 2000 Greeks? How is it possible for the Greek and Bulgaria governments to have people which respective citizenships with living adresses mostly in Skopje and on the other them not existing in the census?
|dejan||By the way, a question of mine wasn't answered a few posts back. Who started this dispute, about Macedonians being Bulgarians? Certainly not a Macedonian, a Bulgarian, i think so. Not our fault that the country lacks in history, so that doesn't mean that you have to try and act like a second Rome and claim that an entire country is actually Bulgarian. Oh and look at this, the introduction. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bu.html Wow! Like totally freak me out:o|
|dejan||You know....i'm not getting you, did you read the article?|
|n/a||OK, I saw the sight your refering to.I don't get it what are you trying to say?
quote:Than you should try to separate people that have Bulgarian and Greek passport from people with Bulgarian and Greek nationality. All those people have both the Macedonian passport and Bulgarian or Greek respectively. And all of them have made them in th recent years due to the fact that travel and bussines in Europe is much easier with those passports than with the Macedonian. But, since you come often to Skopje, you propably know that already.
|dejan||The site i was just referring too, i told you to read the Introduction! The first paragraph. And yet again you didn't answer my question! Who started this dispute, about Macedonians being Bulgarians? Certainly not a Macedonian, a Bulgarian, i think so. Not our fault that the country lacks in history, so that doesn't mean that you have to try and act like a second Rome and claim that an entire country is actually Bulgarian.|
Since I visit Skopje often I also know that many Aegeitsi where given passports when they came to Yu. by your great Tito who changed the name of their birthplaces so that they couldn't pass the Greek border.All of them speak Greek,many have been getting Greek passports because they feel Greek.And some border guards have in my presence threatened them by telling them that dual citizenship is illegal.
Why don't you hang around Aerodrom district in Skopje and ask your friends why they're so secretive about their Greek passports?
And I don't think that business itself is reason enough to get a Greek passport since their male children will have to serve in the Greek military.That's a high price for a passport they would have gotten a Bulgarian one,its cheaper.
quote:What you should also know is that Tito did not change the names of their birth places. they were changed by the greeks after the balkan wars in order to push out any non greek existance. This people, the refugees from the Aegean part, were not only situated in former Yugoslavia, but also through other countries like poland, Armenia, Russia etc. The bussines thing for a possport is another deal. For Bulgarian passport it is easy to get it. It is a procedure that takes about 6 months to one year. As far as the greek one is concerned, I'm not quite familiar with that, but I think it is not possible to get it unless you were born there. But, since bing another topic, lets get back to the discussion.
|dejan||Byzantine! Are you ignoring my question? Since you seem to know the answer to everything, answer my question! Stop ignoring it. Who started this dispute, about Macedonians being Bulgarians? Certainly not a Macedonian, a Bulgarian, i think so. Not our fault that the country lacks in history, so that doesn't mean that you have to try and act like a second Rome and claim that an entire country is actually Bulgarian. I'll post it again and again!|
quote:Koja majchina zemja ste ja barale vie vo Makedonija? od kaj vasha? 500 godini beshe turska, a vie samo ja rasparchivte makedonija vo 1912. Togash e brviot bugarski "claim" za makedonskite terirorii. Bilo kakov argument deka makedonija bila nekogash bugarska padja vo voda osven ako ne ispadne deka i turcite se bugari. A, ako e taka, togash moze da sme rodnini.
quote:[?][?][?] if you want to talk about the history you need facts. You claimed there weren;t macedoniains in Pirin MAcedonia, we show you a picture, you ignore the blatant fact? Where is your logic there? Then you are trying to wind us up with some ignorant, stupid statements. I know you don't like to read, and your history knowledge is limited, but here, look on this forum for a topic on Metaxas. IT has everything explained to you in writting, plain and simple. And MAcedonians were never Bulgarians, we do not have a gypsy blood.
|graf||Boyan and the others from that ugly place that i won't mention. Get on with your life. Everybody love Macedonia. It is just that simple. I believe that the B#$@$ nation came from the french rooting all the gypsy and then out came your ppl.|
|Legal-Eagle||Byzantine, seeing this is question and answer time, i am going to take the liberty of asking you a question .... quite simply ... "what is your point?"|
|Thunder from down under||
|Strelec||еден стар умен човек во една прилика го има речено следново: ако се согласиш со бугарин, губиш... ако му се спротивставиш, пак губиш... ако го игнорираш, е тогаш синко добиваш! тогаш знаев дека е стар, но сега знам дека бил и умен!|
quote:This is as stupid as it gets. Can you find any writen document from maybe the American indians? It is not possible isn't it???? But it doesn't mean that they don't exsist. To get to my point. The Macedonian alfabet was standarized in 1944. This doen't by all means that the macedonian language was invented in that year. Before that the macedonian books and documents were published in different countries and by different printing machines. That is why the some letters were different from case (for example somewhere the letter Ј was used, but in some й ). So you want a Macedonian book writen before WW2? How about: За македонцките работи - Крсте Петков Мисирков Македонска крвава свабда - В. Чернодрински Бегалка - Васил Иљоски Парите се утепувачка - Ристо Крле Сердарот - Григор Прличев Македонски народни умотворби - Марко Цепенков Do I get 100 000 for every document? If so, I can continue,
|boyan_yu||As it seems I have been only 2 day away and quite a discussion has gone arround here. Actualy I like what dejan says, but generaly he does not offer any proof. As many people here. But what ever, one thing I've noticed and the main reason many bulgarians claim that there in no point in arguing with macedonians is that you do not accept to argue about the facts - present contra-facts or do anything to contradict - you only say - that is not right and repeat over and over again what the serbs wrote in your books. I see this going nowhere. It seems that something dramatic should happen in order you to see. There is one thing that might happen - Bulgarian and macedonian historians, togather with international specialists to sit on one table and discuss this on scientific basis. And I do mean that this SHOULD happen, because I CANNOT stand some european freaks to claim that Bulgaria is "discreminating" part of its people!!!! One thing that dejan said attracted my attention - that bulgarians do and argue in macedonia and are chased away with arguments and go away with their faces down - i think I got it right, didn't I? You know, dejan, more than 5 years ago, actually a lot more, a bulgarian historian set a award for the man that presented to him evidence that can stand the reasoning of international historians (notice - not bulgarian, since you mean that they a disfaithful). The award was 1 million dolars. You need 1000000 dollars. I do, how doesn't. Then why don't you go and get them with your evidence, and that goes for everyone here - IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT MACEDONIANS ARE NOT BULGARIANS, THEN GO AND GET RICH. You know something - no one yet tried. Not a single person claimed that the mijority of people in the region of macedonia weren't bulgarians. Why I ask? And two things more - dejan - No one in bulgaria wants you to leave you birth-place or change your life in any way. no one wants your territory or anything from you, as you claimed. We need recognition. And will send the EU to hell if we have to and deny our chance to join it, but not accept the fact that there can possible be such thing as "Macedonian nation". Too many people died for us to be togather to accept this fact. Secondly - that thing I wrote that there are no macedonians in Pirin - I was actialy writen by my girlfriend who is born there. We have 10 people here in Darmstadt from Blagoevgrad that claim the same. Moreover, dejan, the name Blagoevgrad IS REALLY slavic. There is no doubt about it. But if you claim that you are slavic, then you deny your all other claims, because there is absolutely no doubt in any historian work that Alexander the great was greek and that after his dinasty was distroyed by the romans, there were absolutely no notice of "macedonians" in roman records and as you know they have quite a lot of documentation about everything, and I do mean everything Or you did not know that?|
|Maverik||The Macedonian Dinasty in Bisantium? Maybe you know about it, Justinian was an emperor from this dinasty. No evidence? No Macedonains? Say it again please|
|dejan||Uh.....dude, post a link. You could have gotten all that crap from your mind? And also, why ignore my posts? Maybe because i'm telling the truth. Taka e Thunder. If you're not going to treat us with respect gazment, then get out of this forum. tard. On a side note...what do you guys think about France's new law on no religious symbols allowed in their Schools? Way to go!|
|graf||Byzantine, who cares !!!! just get over it !! From the crap that you are writing I believe that you havn't has sex for a very long time.|
I'm going to continue managing companies and using most people of your generation as menial workers in low income positions.Your (generation's) lack of global orientation is spectacular and saddening at the same time.
As for my country,I specified before and I will again that I'm Greek.So whatever comments you have about Bulgaria is your right but try to differentiate between Bulgarian history and my own country's.If you know the difference.
Any time you want to engage in a mature historical convesation feel free.Otherwise I cannot respond to comments that bare no relation to what I say.Why don't you read some comments from DJ Shema and Thunder,perhaps you will at least be exposed to some kind of interest in your own country's and nation's history.
|marko_polog||Why the Macedonians and Bulgarians are Two Separate Nations? 1. The roots of the Macedonians are in ancient Macedonia in Europe since 8th century BC, while the roots of the Bulgarians are in the Turko-Morgilic Bulgars who came to Europe from Asia in the 7th century AD. While the Bulgars are intruders in the Balkans, the Macedonians had preserved their name through the centuries and evidence shows that they have always associated themselves with the ancient Macedonians. 2. When the Macedonian king Alexander the Great (336-323 BC) conquered Asia, he too conquered ancient Bulgaria. In the writings of the ancient historian Pseudo-Calisthenes there is a list of the nations that the Macedonians conquered and the Bulgars are on that list along with the Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, and the other conquered nations. 3. When Rome conquered the Balkans, Macedonia and its eastern neighbor Thrace became part of the Roman Empire. In the late 4th century AD with the split of the Roman Empire, Macedonia and Thrace became part of the East Roman (or Byzantine) Empire. 4. In the 6th century the Slavs invaded the Balkans including Macedonia and Thrace and settled among the ancient Macedonians and Thracians. 5. In the 7th century the Turko-Mongolic Bulgars for a very first time entered Europe from their original Asian home, invaded Thrace, and subdued the Thracians and Slavs. Since this moment the mix between the Bulgar intruders, Thracians, and Slavs will result in the formation of the modern Bulgarian nation. 6. The Bulgars also attacked Macedonia, Epirus, Serbia, conquered parts of these lands, and held them for some time but never permanently. Modern Bulgarian historiography claims that the Bulgar conquest of parts of Macedonia transformed the Macedonians and the Slavs in Macedonia into Bulgarians. The claim is quite ridiculous and easily dismissed for the following main reasons: a) There is NO recorded settlement of Bulgars in Macedonia as there is recorded the settlement of the Slavs among the Macedonians, or as is recorded the settlement of Bulgars among the Thracians and Slavs in Thrace. b) The Bulgar intrusion into Macedonia was nothing but a temporary conquest by foreign armies. Because it was a temporary conquest it is impossible to imagine that the Macedonians suddenly "evolved" into Bulgarians. The case is identical with Serbia since the Bulgarian armies also conquered that country. The Serbians as we know did not turn into Bulgarians either. Likewise the conquest of Russia of the Caucasus countries did not turn these people into Russians despite both of centuries of occupation and Russian settlements among the natives. c) The Romans held Macedonia for more then 12 centuries and yet the Macedonians continued to be mentioned as nation in Byzantine sources, both before and after the Bulgarian conquest. Thus, since the Romans did not turn the Macedonians into Romans after 12 centuries it is more then impossible that the Bulgarians could have turned them into Bulgarians after holding parts of that land over a miniscule period of time. 7. Modern Bulgarian historiography also claims that the apostle brothers St. Cyril and Methodius from the 10th century, who came from the largest Macedonian city Salonica were Bulgarians. However such claim is also impossible since Salonica was never taken by the Bulgarians. The city obviously kept its original Macedonian population since Byzantine records of those times call it "the largest city of the Macedonians". Thus, Cyril and Methodius could not be anything else but Macedonians. Cyril and Methodius' father was an important Macedonian in Salonica. It is simply impossible that he or his sons even looked like the typical Turko-Mongolic Bulgarians from the 11th century. 8. Modern Bulgarian historiography denies that the modern Macedonians are descendents of the ancient Macedonians, but ironically it recognizes that the modern Bulgarians are descendents of the ancient Thracians. Right away they contradict themselves since it is impossible to imagine that the Thracians existed in the 7th century when the Bulgars settled among them, while the ancient Macedonians somehow disappeared a century earlier when the Slavs settled Macedonia. The fact that the Macedonians are mentioned as nation and Slavs are mentioned as living side by side by them in Macedonia in the following centuries by the Byzantine historians is proof that the Macedonians did not mysteriously cease to exist. It also proves that the modern Bulgarian historians are attempting to falsify the history of the Macedonian nation to their likes, although unsuccessfully. 9. The Turks entered Europe in the 14th century with the help of the Turko-Mongolic Bulgars conquered the Balkan countries, including Macedonia and Thrace. 10. After centuries of ruthless oppression, the Balkan peoples lost a clear ethnic identification. The Greeks called themselves Romanoi, the Bulgarians called themselves Serbs, Greeks and Bulgars, while the Macedonians called themselves Christians, Bulgarians, Slavs, but also Macedonians. There are Russian, Austrian, German, English sources since the 15th centuries which mention the existence of the Macedonians among their neighbors Serbians, Greeks, and Bulgarians. Furthermore written records show that Macedonians claimed a lineage from Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. 11. In the 19th century when nationalism swept the Balkans and the Greek and Bulgarians strove to develop their own Greek and Bulgarian nationality, so did the Macedonians strove to develop their own Macedonian nationality and consciousness. More and more cases are reported where the Macedonians claimed a distinct nationality as direct descendents of the ancient Macedonians and Alexander the Great. The Macedonian rebellions against the Turks in the 19th century, the deeds of the Macedonian intellectuals, and the Macedonian folk and literature have brought up this strong national awakening. 12. Having open appetite to Macedonian land, Bulgaria did everything to suppress the development of the Macedonian national awakening and many Macedonians who fought against the Turks and sought refuge ended up in Bulgarian prisons, or were betrayed and surrendered to the Turks. Such examples were Alexander of Ohrid, father Theodosie of Skopje who attempted to form an independent Macedonian church, Gotse Delchev, Jane Sandanski, Gjorche Petrov, and countless others. 13. That the Bulgarians tried everything to falsify the history of the Macedonians we find proof in the recent discovery of a stone inscription which states that the Macedonians of the 10th century and Czar Samoil were Bulgarians. However, the stone was examined by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences in Sofia and its director himself declared that the inscription was a 19th century Bulgarian fabrication. Thus we have obtained a clear proof that the Bulgarians have been falsifying the history of the Macedonians for more then a century. If Tsar Samoil was indeed a "Bulgarian", there would have been no need to use falsifications in order to show that. It is obvious that the falsifiers were aware that that neither Samoil nor the Macedonians were Bulgarian and with that in mind they created the forgery. Needless to say, modern historiography calls the Bulgarian claims that Samoil was a Bulgarian - absurd. 14. Yet the Bulgarians also contradict themselves in their claim that the Macedonians were "Bulgarians". There are Bulgarian historians like Draganov and Slaveykov, who even since the 19th century admitted that the Macedonians were not Bulgarians but a distinct nation with its own language, culture, and ethnicity. 15. In 1913 Bulgaria, and her allies Serbia and Greece, with the help of more then 100,000 Macedonians who fought along these three armies, drove the Turks out of Macedonia, but Macedonia did not gain its freedom. Instead, the Balkan countries partitioned Macedonia among themselves and Bulgaria occupied 13% of the whole territory, called Pirin Macedonia. 16. Bulgaria now begun an open assimilatory politics against the Macedonians, just like Greece did in Aegean Macedonia, and proclaimed that the Macedonians of Pirin are Bulgarians. Any opposition was brutally suppressed. 17. After helping the Turks to occupy the Balkans in the 14th century, the Bulgarians again sided with the dark side in World War II (1941-1945). As fascist allies of Hitler, the Bulgarian armies occupied the previously occupied Greek and Serbian parts of Macedonia. 18. But the Macedonians defeated the Bulgarian fascist troops and after the war, the government of Bulgaria on August 9, 1946 officially recognized the Macedonian nation and the right of the Pirin part of Macedonia to be attached to the People’s Republic of Macedonia. 19. The Macedonians in Bulgaria exist as separate nationality on all Bulgarian censuses after the end of World War II. The demography data from 1946 revealed that the majority of the population in the Pirin part of Macedonia declared itself as Macedonian in a free census. A period of cultural autonomy and affirmation of the Macedonian national and cultural values had begun. The Macedonian literary language and the national history have been introduced into the educational process. Almost 32,000 pupils were included into the teaching of Macedonian. In 1947 in Gorna Djumaja (Blagoevgrad nowadays) the first Macedonian bookstore and reading room were opened, as well as the Regional Macedonian National Theater. The newspapers in Macedonian such as "Pirinsko delo", "Nova Makedonija", "Mlad Borec" etc. were also published. Literary circles and cultural and artistic associations were founded contributing to the spreading of the Macedonian culture. In the Bulgarian census of 1956, the majority of the population of Pirin again declared itself Macedonian. 20. However, since 1956 Bulgaria has altered her attitude, negating again the existence of the Macedonian nation and forbidding the free expression of Macedonian nationality and language. The idea was enforced and as result, in the census of 1965, the number of Macedonians suddenly dropped to only 8,750 and in the district of Blagoevgrad which previously had the highest percentage of Macedonians, it was "mysteriously" less than 1%. Yet the Macedonians in Bulgaria begun organizing themselves and in 1989, United Macedonian Organization - Ilinden (OMO Ilinden) was formed, demanding cultural and national autonomy for the Macedonians in Pirin. 21. Like Greece, Bulgaria stands accused by the international human rights organizations Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International for denying the Macedonians of Pirin their basic human rights to identify themselves as Macedonians. Nevertheless it is recognized that the Macedonians exist in Bulgaria with their own national consciousness and consist a sizable minority. They organize themselves despite the pressures and intimidation of the Bulgarian police, and continue to peacefully demand their rights which the Bulgarians stripped them off since their army took over Pirin Macedonia in 1913. 22. The Bulgarians and the Macedonians also defer in physical appearance. The typical Mongolic features among the modern Bulgarians are absent among the Macedonians. The ancient Bulgar personal names still common today among the modern Bulgarians are absent among the Macedonians. The Bulgarian and Macedonian folklore and music are much different and none of the Bulgarian khans or other rulers have ever been celebrated among the Macedonians. In contrast stories about the Macedonian kings Alexander the Great and Philip II, and the Macedonian Slav Czar Samoil dominate the Macedonian folklore, music, and dance. Finally, the fact that the Bulgarians have kept their ancient Asiatic name, and the Macedonians have kept their ancient European name speaks clearly that they are aware of the fact they are two different nations with two different ethnic roots.|
|marko_polog||Bulgarian Falsification of Macedonian History The Stone Inscriptions Case Macedonia was partitioned after the Balkan Wars in 1913 among Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Albania. Bulgaria took the Pirin part of the country and renamed the Macedonians into "Bulgarians", and since had engaged in a politics of oppression. But the Bulgarian government had attempted to falsify the history of Macedonia and present the Macedonians as "Bulgarians", even long before it conquered Pirin Macedonia. Below is example which dates from the 19th century. 1. The Voden Inscription During September 1997 a Greek national with "Bulgarian identity" from Voden named Stoidis appeared in Sofia at the National Historical Museum and declared to the Director Bozidar Dimitrov that he has in his possession a stone inscription found in Voden (Edessa) during the reconstruction of a local church. The Director declared the inscription a fake made by Bulgarian nationalists in the 19th Century. Apparently the whole story was published in the Bulgarian daily Kontinent on "02.10.1997." This is the Bulgarian fabricated stone inscription by "Tsar Samuil" found in Voden (Edessa), Greece. Rough translation into English of the text on the fake stone: "In the city of Voden, I Samuil, faithful to Christ, Emperor of the Bulgars and Romans, Godsent emperor of all lands from Raska to Macedonia, Thessaly and Greece, nephew of the old Shishman who was Khan of the inhabitants of Trnovo, built this prayer home, to exist forever. The foundation were laid in the epoch of Jeremiah, who was the first Christian in Melnik. This temple was built for the sins and saving of the Bulgars from damned Satan, who comes from Constantinople. This temple was finished during the 14th year of my rule with the help of monk Gavril, who is the spiritial shepherd of the inhabitants of Meglen. Written during year 6497 from the foundation of the world (989 A.D), 5th Indiction." http://www.gate.net/~mango/Bulgarian_falsification.html 2. Gotse Delchev As we can see the Bulgarians had engaged in falsification of the Macedonian history for over a century, in order to justify their "historical" claim on the Macedonian land. The stone inscription from the 19th century was manufactured precisely with that intend. Ironically, the Sofia National Historical Museum revealed the truth. The Bulgarian falsification of Macedonian history is still desperately attempting to present the Macedonians as Bulgarians. Numerous alleged letters of the Macedonian revolutionaries from the late 19th and early 20th century (including Goce Delchev) have been "discovered" by the Bulgarian historians where the Macedonian revolutionaries explicitly refer to themselves as "Bulgarians". One look at the inscription above and it is clear that the Bulgarians are also manufacturing and falsifying these alleged letters of the Macedonian revolutionaries. After all, the Macedonian revolutionaries fought for independent Macedonia and the motto of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (VMRO) was "Macedonia for the Macedonians". When it comes to Goce Delchev, the Bulgarians can not falsify his most famous thought which came before his death and the partition of Macedonia: "Macedonia has its own interests and its own politics which belong to the Macedonians. The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria, Greece, or Serbia, can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek, or Serb, but not as good Macedonian" (Gotse Delchev). The Macedonian newspaper "Narodna Volja", published by the ethnic Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia always puts Goce's words on its front page, right below his picture. If the Bulgarians wish to believe that the Macedonians are "Bulgarians", they should also know that the Macedonians in Bulgaria have not subscribed to the 100 year old Bulgarian falsification.|
|n/a||Ok, just show me a map or any statistics from the end of the 19th or begining of the 20nd century(reliable) that proves a Macedonian "nation" existed and lived on today's territory of Macedonias (Aegean, Pirin and Vardar) PS: If you want I could show you a lot of statistics proving the nation living in this territory was not MAcedonian, nor Greek, nor Serbian BUT BULGARIAN.|
|Thunder from down under||
quote:read some post from others in here before you post ,you may find some aswers and more
|n/a||Just give them to me...|
|n/a||If Tsar Samuil was really Macedonian, why did Basil when he won against Samuil was called the Bulgarian slayer... And about the falsification of history by the Bulgarians just show the proof and then talk.|
|n/a||T: It is my privilege to know you are so angry. ...Doc|
quote:ahahahaha taka ve lazat? javi se vo parlament i prashaj gi zasho bugarite ne go branat i mihail jeksonov, i toj e bugarin.
|graf||AGAIN you are being brain washed !!!!|
Your argumentation is based on only partially accurate historical points.Your method however is very responsible.Good for you.
|Thunder from down under||Byzantine, nothing seems to satisfy you man, first you said CIA is not good enought you wanted soemthing from encyclopedia , i show you whats in the encyclopedias , than you turn around and say encycpopedias are no good enought for you, marko try to explain you as well to see the picture,you refuse to accept it that is tipical greek, who are scared from the truth and they always will be, becouse everything they got is stolen and fake and you just wasting ppls time in here|
|ozonce||vi frfa a?:)|
|DJ_SHEMA||[img]http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/images/macedonia_bianconi.jpg[/img] Data, 1885 - Paris Samo za nashite ceneti "pobratimi" so nadez deka eden den kje si gi otvorat ochite. I Byz ushte soli pamet deka ne bil bugar. Znam te pushko kad si pishtolj bila.|
|ozonce||[img]http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/images/mk_karta_1913a.JPG[/img] abe zlatni deca glupi se praat, ne ja gledam korista od vashiot idiotizam i glupizam. odi na http://www.cashfiesta.com i uzivaj malku ne soli um na toj sho go ima..[:D]|
|dejan||Zasto skopje e uskub?|
|n/a||Whats ethnicity got to do with it? Im macedonian cause i say I am!and my ancenstors said they were and lived within the borders of macedonia heres a quote for you "I do not seperate people, as do the narrow-minded, into Greeks and Barbarians. i am not interested in the origin or race of citizens. i only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. For me each good foreigner is a Greek and each bad Greek worse than a Barbarian." Alexander of Macedonia didnt matter back then either, did it|
|Tzar Samuil||We, Bulgarians don't have the right to STEAL other country's history! I apologize.|
|Tzar Samuil||Bitolski nadpis na Car Ivan Vladislav ot 1015-1016 godina "Prez godina 6523 (1015-1016) ot sutvorenieto na sveta obnovi se tazi krepost, zidana i pravena ot Ioan, samodurjec bulgarski, s pomoshtta i s molitvite na presvetata vladichica nasha Bogorodica i chrez zastupnichestvoto na dvanadesette i na vurhovnite apostoli. Tazi krepost be napravena za ubejishte i za spasenie i za jivota na bulgarite. Zapochnata beshe krepostta Bitolia prez mesec oktomvri v 20-i den, a se zavurshi v mesec... kraia. Tozi samodurjec beshe bulgarin po rod, vnuk na Nikola i na Ripsimia blagovernite, sin na Aaron, koito e brat na Samuil, caria samodurjaven, i koiito dvamata razbiha v Shtipon (Ihtiman) gruckata voiska na car Vasilii, kudeto be vzeto zlato... , a tozi v... car razbit bide ot car Vasilii v godina 6522 (1014) ot sutvorenieto na sveta v Kliuch i pochina v kraia na liatoto." Nadpisut e izpisan vurhu kamenna plocha, upotrebena vtorichno kato stroitelen material pri izgrajdaneto na djamia v Bitolia.|
|Tzar Samuil||Just for your information Ivan Vladislav was Tzar Samuel's nephew!|
|n/a||Macedonian people are NOT of Bulgarian nationality because they speak different languages. Bulgarian as a matter of fact is not purely Slavic language. It originated somewhere between Pamir mountains and Volga river, slashed through densely populated Slavic region, and was stopped and reworked by Ellinic language of Southern Macedonia. Bulgars acquired Slavic wordbase, Greek syntax and morphology (verb tenses, articles et cet.) but deep inside they all have remained the same old wild tribe of Turco-Uiguric people from Western Siberia. Nothing you can do about (but annex Macedonia!) Russian Proslava|
|n/a||The truth is that nobody likes the truth especially a bitter one. Why you Bulgarians are so ashamed of your great Uiguro-Turkic past? Look at those greats of your shared past - Ghenghiz Khan, Suleiman the Great, Attillah the Gun. Consider this - being a part of a great Tartar-Bulgar community is not a handicap. And I really didn't mean to offend you. Ok. If you're not originated from Tartars, and you are not of Slavic ancestry, either. Then who are you? Jews? Greeks? Romans? Speak up, please. Very yours, Russian Proslava.|
|Bulgar||Sorry about the double post[:I] Someone mentioned something about girls I think it was dejan...Let's play a game called "Find the Tatar"...I've posted 2 pics,one of them is of a candidate for Miss Macedonia and the other is of a candidate for Miss Tatarsan - the country you so much love to associate us with.[;)] [img]http://www.misstatarstan.ru/foto/img_rating/big/43.jpeg[/img] [img]http://www.missm.com.mk/izbor2003/kandidatki/Шошковска%20Билјана/1.jpg[/img] And no cheating...use your eyes only(google and other methods are not allowed) P.S.This post does not intend to offend anybody...both girls are pretty...it's just a game(joke) toward the praisers of the female beauty... peace!!!|
|OooOo||I can't see the tatar one. Please Re-post the picture :)|
|DJ_SHEMA||yeah, let's see the tatarushka|
|Bulgar||Girl#1 [img]http://www.misstatarstan.ru/foto/img_rating/big/43.jpeg[/img] Girl#2 [img]http://www.missm.com.mk/izbor2003/kandidatki/Шошковска%20Билјана/1.jpg[/img]|
|OooOo||I still can't see her :)|
|Bulgar||Well you maks have that problem of not seen things - usually in historical therms - but as we see not only...|
|graf||hmm does miss Bulgarian give good head ahahah|
quote:ne znam brat za miss bulgarian ama za momickite po plazite, za edna pijacka sto ke ti napravat breeeee
|graf||ehheheheh. Hmmm hay what is it that they call Bulgarian , that right "Bulgarian DOgs" !!! How can Macedonian be Dogs !!!! abre Bulgarian be a good dog and go home and guard the house.|
|Ceki||Udri ne cekaj na tunel Makedonec!!! looooooool|
|n/a||Uneducated lowlife is what you are bro. struggle with you hate and don’t insult because Bulgarians are STILL very tolerant with you!!!!|
quote:море Bro од каде бугари у Австрија бреееееј
quote:You are tolerant, i think we are those who are tolerant, living with 4 neighbours, that are hatten throughout the world, and they all want something from us. We are just quiet and tolerant and are giving you whatever you say, but this will change, we cant keep our heads down forever, and then there will be no tolerance anymore.
|n/a||I’ve been reading the comments on this forum and the only think i see is pure, blind hate. History is a complicated thing. Everyone takes the 25% that are undeniable truth, because it comes from actual sources, and then mixes it with politics. In order for all historians to agree on a claim, they need something called evidence because “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. Macedonia is a new country. Even if we take all that you claim for true, the country Macedonia did not exist for last 600 years. It is common for young countries to use history in order to unify their population. Make them more proud and patriotic. As examples you can look at Albania and Croatia. The population of both countries is extremely patriotically. Your politics use history to make you proud and patriotic. According to you , everyone around you stole something from you. You take all the great figures in history and you claim they are Macedonians. Well in addition I can claim that Christopher collumb and Amerigo Vespucci were also Macedonians and that Alaska was once Macedonian territory. Its very easy to claim, but let me repeat myself “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. My mother and my grand parents are from Pirin Macedonia. If you tell them that they have something to do with Macedonian state they will laugh their ass off. It would be the same if I claim that because I was born in sofia I am member of shopian population. In the 1980 Serbian propaganda claimed that spopians are different population from other Bulgarians and they should have country of their own. Serbians believed in that and just 20 years later this claim sounds ridiculous even for Serbians. I don’t know why you decided that Bulgaria is hated around the world! Maybe you compare Bulgaria to Albania. Well let me give you a simple example. The above joke, from user “highlander” is very funny to you because someone stabs someone else in the back. Moreover, he is not man enough to look him in the face and do whatever he attends. Well friend, that is something very typical for the Albanians. There all culture is based on that. So don’t make parallels between Bulgarians and Albanians because i am not like this all people i know are not like this too. Indeed, you have more similarities to Albanians than i do so making parallels is totally improper. And as conclusion, if Bulgaria is so bad and hated country, tell me then why in 2003 it was visited by 228 611 Macedonian tourists? (http://www.news.bg/article.php?cid=20&pid=0&aid=135486) This statistic is only for people that stayed more than 5 days in Bulgaria for tourist reason. Nevertheless, Bulgarian universities are full with Macedonian students, but probably they really hate it and they stay there just to loose their time.|
|n/a||maveric, i can't read your comments because i have no cyrilic driver on this computer. would you mind writing with latin letters.|
|Misirkov||"In the villages of Macedonia, one meets peasants of a single nationality speaking a Slavic language and belonging to the Eastern Orthodox faith. Nine out of ten of these people, despite their being the subject of dispue between three adjoining countries, would reply in response to the question as for their nationality, that they were Macedonian." (G. Bakalov, "The Pretenders on Macednia", Varna 1890, p. 22). ********** ******** ****** ***** **** *** ** * "It is only 30 years ago that Bulgarian propaganda first began. Necessity knows no law, and so we threw ourselves into the arms of the Bulgars because.....they promised us deliverance from the Greek Church.....and eventually even from Turkish domination." Covekov ponatamu veli deka bugarskiot Egzarh vo Carigrad prakjal 700.000 franci godisno za potrebite na bugarskata propaganda! "If this appears incredible to you, consult the Bulgarian budget. There you will find that the Foreign Ministry annualy receives 2.800.000 francs, though it has neither embassies nor consulates to maintain......I have mentioned that the Bulgarian Church is the mainspring of the propaganda and its focus." (T.R. Georgevitch, "Macedonia", London, Alan and Unwin, 1918, 2nd and 3rd supplement).|
|Misirkov||Eden Makedonec, Jovan Veljev, go opisuva fanatizmot na bugarskite uciteli vo nametnuvanje do ludilo na "bugarsko" nacionalno cuvstvo kako del od "obrazovniot" proces vo 19 vek: "When in 1888 I had passed the third class of the Bulgarian [school] in Solun. . . . .I was already mad[dened] with bulgarism and the continual impressing of it on me on the part of the Bulgarian teachers." (T.R. Georgevitch, "Macedonia", Allen and Unwin, London 1918, 2nd supplement).|
|Misirkov||I pokraj site nedoslednosti na nivnata teza, Bugarite se uste se drzat za Sanstefansiot dogovor kako visitinska geneza na bugarskata nacija. Se razbira ne go spomnuvaat faktot deka sanstefanska Bugarija e ruska tvorba za potrebite na ruskata geopolitika na Balkanot. Ruskite tajni arhivi gi otkrivaat carskite ambicii na Balkanot vo 1987-tite: kako prvo Makedonija odlucile da ja dodelat na Srbija, no otkako uvidele deka Srbija se oddalecila od Rusija, resile da i ja dodelat Makedonija na Bugarija, za da stane indirektno pod ruska kontrola: "Our policies concerning the southern Slav peoples in the Balkans are guided by the defense of our interests involved by the Eastern Question. The liberation of the unfree Slav people from Turkish slavery must always be accomodated.....But the present regency in Serbia...has gone too far...from Russia. Therefore, it suits us for Bulgaria to be liberated, and it would be better that Macedonia, which we had earlier promissed to Serbia, came under a new Bulgarian state, indirectly under our control." Dragan Taskovski, Bogomilskoto dvizenje vo Makedonija, Skopje 1975, p. 81. Document dated 12/2/1878.|
|Misirkov||Dimo, Tisho, Ilac i kompanija tataroljupci. Procitajte malku istorija pred da se sramotite so vakvi fanatizirani izjavi. Spored ruskiot civilen agent Petraev pri posetata na Makedonija so Hilmi pasa vo 1907: "...Kako zaklucok jas ne mozam da ne naglasam, deka samoto naselenie pocnuva mosne zabelezitelno da se cuvstvuva optovareno od propagandite i toa najiskreno bara da bide ostaveno namira. Vo Kosturskata kaza doadjaa kaj nas delegacii od selata i ni izjavuvaa deka ne gi sakaat nitu grckite, nitu bugarskite uciteli i svetenici, tuku molat da im bidat dadeni makedonski. Na prasaweto za nivnata nacionalnost tie odgovaraa deka se MAKEDONCI. Takvite pojavi se daleku od toa da bidat poedinecni, a tie pokazuvaat deka hristijanskoto naselenie na Makedonija e vekje izmoreno od gnetot vrz nego na raznite propagandi, i deka kaj nego pocnuva da se budi nacionalnoto samosoznanie, koesto se razlikuva od onie, sto otstrana mu se nametnuvaat."|
|n/a||na koi mu puka za teq..ako iskat da si kazvat,4e sa i marsianzi...az sum happy da sme razdeleni s makedonia!ina4e shipterite dosega da bexa pluznali i v bulgaria. thanks macodian brothers!keep albanians away from us! for sure-we are brothers but just stay home and don`t come in bg very ofthen. ama kakto e trugnalo-edin den kato vlezem v EC shte dignat granizata i pak shte se omeshim i nema da se znae koi kum,koi svat-koi na bulkata brat..are sus zdrave!|
|OooOo||eden pameten bugar se javi. ALELUJA ! [:D]|
|n/a||e,ama v bulgaria se vodq makedonez... ama kvo ti puka. za ciganite az sum bulgarin v bulgaria mi vikat makedonez... edin priatel punk kazvashe`nie sme ot vsqkude`|
quote:Znachi v bulgaria te tretiraat kato chovek!:)
|Christian||if you wanna step up you gonna get knocked down!!!![:D]|
|n/a||Listen you all.I don`t want to argue if there are any macedonians in Bulgaria or are there any bulgarians in Macedonia.I just want you to STOP stealing our history-nothing else.If you want you may have language,nationality and everything you want,but please tell in your history that macedonia was 2000 years under someone`s rule.I believe that in your books it is said about Tzar Samuil and how did he died.Do you know how is his enemy-Vasilii called by ancient chroniches-BALGAROUBIEC - translating for you who don`t know our difficult language-The one who kills bulgarians-NOT macedonians!I`ll be glad if someone explain this fact to me(all greek know that Vasilii was the one who enslaved Bulgaria for almost 200 years).I only want that from you and peace to all.I believe if we both stop arguing for known things we can somehow understand each other|
quote:Epa toa e... toa e vasata bolest... vie ni sami neznaete koi ste
|Dimo||Hi all! I am from Bulgaria and I can only say: I can only feel pity that brothers cant recognize brothers. Call yourself how you want - Macedonians, Tanganaikians or whatever, just dont deny that you are pure bulgarians with washed brains from the serbs during the years of being Yugoslavian province. I knew a few macedonians in person and one of them told me that he is succesor of Alexander the Macedonian!!![:D][:D][:D] I met him in England and he was so convinent in what he was saying, that all the english people believed him!!! I just stayed there unable to say anything....[V] Other say that Samuil is macedonian tzar (king)... So why then his enemy is called Byzantine emperor Basil Bulgaroctonus (in translation means Basil the killer of bulgarians) [url]http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=13777[/url] shame on you if you deny the truth and say that even Encyclopedia Britannica is part of the bulgarian conspiracy and lying[:D][:D][:D] So, what kind of history you have in support to your assertion? Philip the macedonian, Alexander the macedonian (both greeks and lived in the 4th-century BC) and Samuil (bulgarian tzar 991-1014)[url]http://www.historymuseum.org/halls.php3?hall=6[/url] [url]http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-816056-bulgaria_the_first_bulgarian_kingdom-i[/url]????? What is between??? I cant tell you - ask your teachers in the schools who recreated the world history... And the next time you call us "hatted through the world", please, dont forget BROTHERS, that Bulgaria was the first country in the world to officially recognize the new born country of Macedonia back in the 1990's when you separated from Yugoslavia. Oh, and one more thing - when the shipters take the guns to wipe you out from the face of the world, dont be ashame - we will send you tanks and helicopters again. We will forgive you your nonsences little brothers[;)] I knew the moderators will delete my post or at best semi-litterated fanatical "macedonians" will answer to me in manner of Graf[xx(]... But...Anyway... Peace brothers, and have a nice new president. P.S. Oh, and btw the anecdot @highlander told - its a more than 15 years old one here in Bulgaria[8D] (and there is no multinacional staring)....Cribs again.|
|highlander||Ти Димо татар си?|
quote:Hello fellow Kazkhstanian, well that's what your great great great great grandparents were:) Why his enemy is called that......uh maybe because they were both vying for control and both despised your people. Yes thanks for recognising us, but as far as i know, you were not he first country, i believe Russia was or Slovenia. You know that comment about the siptari 'wiping' us out, that was a very rude comment, but remember, it will come back to people like you. Those type of comments usually come back and hurt you, maybe not now, but in the near future. So maybe you should be ready to flee your home, just like the Serbians in Kosovo and the Bosnians in their war. Also take a good look around your home too, at your possessions, it'll be your last too, and maybe your last look at your family also. Yes...so what you say to us comes back to you. Racist idiot. You know, you are also lucky that the Turkish empire left you a country larger than ours. I guess they saw the similarities with them and you. If Macedonia had its original borders, you wouldn't be saying this, in fact, would you have made this a public announcement 20 years ago? Towards Macedonia? No i don't think so. There is no need to deny your ancestry traits. You have tartar blood in you and when ever you look into a mirror, a tartar looks back. Ashamed of his past, just like you! That's why you try and force it onto another nation. Tell me this, how many people in Bulgaria have blue/green eyes blonde hair and fair skin? Probably very small amount. But how many in Macedonia? More than triple the amount in 1000's in Bulgaria. Another thing....why did Clement come down to Ohrid to promote Christianity? He was familiar with the Macedonian dialect thus deciding to visit Ohrid, knowing it was Macedonia. Stop making up false history just because you lack in that area. Where in which encyclopedia does it have that Macedonians are Bulgarians? Which encyclopedia? Btw, look at my picture <---- do i look like a tartar to you?(you will say yes because you're narrow minded)
|n/a||Like as if it wasnt bad enough that Greeks are trying to fuck us in the ass now we have these fuckers.....Hello you fukin tartars da ti go ebem pleme mongolsko.....for a people who claim they are descended from a mix of turks,slavs and THRACIANS to come here and preach to us about our history and or ethnicity is absurd. Why dont you go molest some sheep you fucks; we know your love for your "brothers" you loved us so much you wanted to kill us.|
|Misirkov||"Makedonski glas" od 1891 godina: "BUGARSKATA EGZARHIJA SE PRETVORILA VO EDNA CHUMA, KOJA BESPOSHTEDNO GO OPUSTOSUVA SAMOSTOJNIOT DUH NA MAKEDONSKITE CRKOVNO-UCILISNI OPSTINI I GO DEMORALIZIRA NARODOT VO TAA NESREKJNA ZEMJA. TAA GI GONI SITE LICA OPASNI ZA BUGARSTINATA.....TAA GO SMENI PO ISTI PRICINI I SKOPSKIOT MITROPOLIT TEODOSIJA." ********* ******* ****** ***** **** *** ** * Bugarite reagiraat na nastojuvanjata na dejcite na BMPO da vospostavat makedonski literaturan jazik vo makedonskite ucilista "VNATRESNATA ORGANIZACIJA BOZEM BILA RESILA DA GO ISFRLI BUGARSKIOT JAZIK OD UCILISTATA VO MAKEDONIJA I DA GO ZAMENI SO NEKAKOV MAKEDONSKI, NESTO KAKO "MISIRKOVATA KASHA".....VO VELES PRISTIGNA EDEN MISIRKOV AGENT SO CEL DA JA PROPOVEDA MISIRKOVSTINATA." ("Odzivi i beleski", v. Makedonski pregled br. 5, Sofija, 25ti juli 1905 godina)|
|Misirkov||"In examining the Macedonian question from the political point of view, I shall not deal with the old times....Condemned at first to Roman rule, and then to Byzantine oppression, and finally to Turkish slavery, the terrible name of Macedonian found shelter from generation to generation in Macedonian hearts only...In the same towns and villages, the priests that receive salary from the Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those that receive salary from the Serbian Metropolitan office call themselves Serbians...Besides, the Macedonians were always allies and participants both in the liberation of the Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians....From all that has been previously mentioned, I dare say that the Macedonians have a one hundred percent right to autonomy and not to being subjected to dismembering among the Greeks, the Serbs and Bulgarians. Disregarding this fact, the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian governments, aiming to extend their frontiers into Macedonians territory, spare no means and exterminate the Macedonians who refuse to call themselves Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians...The Macedonian people will not reconcile themselves either with those who aspire to deprive them of their language, customs and the natural desire to be free masters of their own house. Hence, only if the Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians renounce their aspirations will Macedonia live in a friendly way..." N.D. Dimov, "Istoricheskii ocherk Makedonii i makedonskih slavjan", Peterburg, 1913.|
|Misirkov||Spored francuskata diplomatska dokumentacija: "MAKEDONCITE PORESITELNO KJE SE DEKLARIRAAT ZA MAKEDONCI VO PRVITE DVE DECENIII NA XX VEK......APSURDNO DA SE SMETA KAKO STO SE PRAVI VO SOFIJA I BELGRAD DEKA MAKEDONIJA E BUGARSKA ILI SRPSKA..... AKO PRASATE EDEN MAKEDONEC ZA TAA RABOTA, TOJ SEKOGAS ODGOVARA DEKA E MAKEDONEC I E ZA SOZDAVANJE NEZAVISNA MAKEDONIJA, EDNOSTAVNO ZATOA STO VO TOA GLEDA RESENIE I NACIN ZA OSLOBODUVANJE OD POLICISKATA TIRANIJA NA TURSKITE, SRPSKITE I BUGARSKITE VLASTI.......ZATOA OVA RESENIE E NAJPOGODNO ZA DA IM SE STAVI KRAJ NA STREMEZITE I SPROTIVNOSTITE NA SOSEDNITE DRZAVI KON MAKEDONIJA, ZASTO SOPERNICITE SEKOGAS GO GLEDAA MAKEDONSKOTO NASELENIE ZA SVOE." (Archives diplomatique de Ministere des affaires etrangeres. Nantes, Fond, Etat General des fonds, serie, Monastir (Bitola), vol. 11-14)|
|Ceki||Mnogu interesni informacii davas Misirkov, sega samo ni treba ekipa na mokni istoricari i politicari sto ovie dejstva ke gi prezentirat niz svetov. Ni treba takvo nesto, posto mislam deka ovie teksti ne se najdobro poznati vo evropa i vo svetov.|
|Misirkov||Evtim Sprostranov do Minister precedatelot na Bugarija, Petrov, noemvri 1903: "Kako sto gledate gospodine Minister-pretsedatele, vakvite idei sto veke nasiroko se prifakjaat od makedonskoto naselenie, ne se ni malku za potcenuvanje za da ne im se posveti golemo vnimanie. Ako pritoa dodadam deka propagatorite na makedonskiot separatizam se zafatile mosne studiozno i so entuzijazam da pecatat knigi, recnici, citanki, istoriski ucebnici i gramatika na makedonski jazik, togas mozete da ja sfatite porealno opasnosta za bugarstinata vo Makedonija. Ubeden sum deka za mosne kratko vreme, osven tenkiot sloj na makedonskata inteligencija skoluvana vo bugarskite ucilista, narodot kje go otfrli bugarskiot jazik i kje go prifati makedonskiot, odnosno majciniot, bidejkji kje nema potreba da go uci, kako sto so maka toa go pravi so bugarksiot jazik. No me cudi i Vasiot stav beskompromisno da se borite protiv sekakov makedonski separatizam. Verojatno imate i drzavnicki plan za negovata likvidacija... Vasite zabeleski deka ne sum sluzel cesno na drzavata od koja sum primal plata, posebno me zalostat. Sto se odnesuva za moeto pisuvanje vo spisanijata i vesnicite na makedonsko narecje, toa go pravev od ednostavna cel da im se priblizam na separatistite za da mozam popodrobno da se zpoznam so nivnata dejnost. Ako pritoa rezultatot od takvata moja dejnost go ocenuvate kako steten za bugarskoto delo vo Makedonija, jas ne sum vinoven, bidejki tie spisanija i vesnici ke izleguvaat na makedonskoto narecje i bez moi statii i tvorbi, kako sto i separatistickoto dvizenje i natamu ke se siri, go sakale nie toa ili ne...Vakviot razvoj na nastanite vo vrska so Makedonskoto nacionalno dvizenje ne treba da Ve cudi, gospodine minister-pretsedatele... Zatoa koga Vi pisuvav deka e mozebi podobro za Vasata vlada da gi ima predvid opasnostite sto se javuvaat od Makedonskoto nacionalno dvizenje i da bide prva, a ne posledna, sto kje ja soobrazi svojata drzavna politika so nacionalnite tendencii na Makedoncite, mislev pred se na idnite odnosi medju dvete zemji." (Prevzemeno od Aleksandar Donski, "Etnogenezata na Makedoncite i Bugarite", Skopje 1999)|
|Misirkov||Makedonskiot pisatel Angel Dinev vo Pirinska Makedonija 1939 g.: "MAKEDONSKIOT JAZIK E SVOJSTVEN NA MAKEDONSKATA ZEMJA.....NARODOT STO MU JA DADE AZBUKATA NA CELIOT SLOVENSKI SVET...NEMA DA GO ZAGUBI SVOJOT ETNICKI LIK, NI SVOJOT DUH, NI SVOJOT MAJCIN GOVOR." Angel Dinev, "Makedonskite Slavjani", Sofija 1939, str. 194-95.|
|Pavel_Petrov||I want to say some words about Bulgarians and Bulgars just to educate some of the "Macedonians" here. The Bulgars had a state in the middle of 7th century in the lands of south Russia and parts of Ukraine. After the Hazar attacks they divided in several fractions. One fraction settled in north Russia. This fraction is nowadays bolgars or the other name tatars. They adopted the muslim religion and they really look like mongols. Other fraction settled in Italy near Neapol. They were mixed with the local population. Everyone knows the jewelry BULGARI, right? Other fraction settled in Moravia.(nowadays Slovenia,Poland and so on) They too mixed with the local population. Other fraction was lost in western Europe.There is almost no info about those bulgars. And the fraction that we are interested in is the part of Bulgars that were lead by Asparuch. They settled in Balkans and mixed with the local population of Slavs and thus formed the Bulgarians. Bulgarians are slavs. They do not look like mongols.There are only about 20 bulgar words left in modern Bulgarian. So FINALLY . Bulgarians are Slavs.Bulgarians are NOT Tatars or Mongols. Now some more info. You say that people in Pirin call themselves Macedonians. That's true. They live in Macedonia and they are Macedonians just like People that live in Sofia call themselves Shopi. And People living in Dobrudja call themselves Dobrudjanci. The same is valid for all other Bulgarian regions. They are all Bulgarians. That's all. Let's stop with all other stupid suggestions. Now I would just like to ask: How is this possible to say that modern Macedonians are successors of Alexander The Great? Alexsander could be greek or whatever, but he was NOT Slav. Modern Macedonians are Slavs.They speak SLav language that's 100% sure. I'd stop for now.Dont want to say more about the language because there's such topic in the forum. Please do not ban me because I can register again and post again. You won't stop me. This is discussion right? I have the right to post what I think.|
|n/a||@Highlander: I am bulgarian. And you seems to be an idiot or 13-years old child. Also decide who you want to be - putting macedonian flag for your avatar and calling yourself Highlander which means
"a native of the Highlands of Scotland " [url]http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/highlander[/url]....
After tousends of words and sugestions , backed up with proofs from me, the only thing you can say is "Димо, ти татар ли си?"... I refuse to argue with idiots like you, becose you will drag me down to your level and beat me with experience[:D].
@Dejan: First, thanks for the common sence in your reply. This is the way a civilized dialogue, which purpose is to reveal the truth is meant to be.
And about your post:
1. Calling me a kazahstanian is equal to calling you a greek, becose your greatest hero in the history was Alexander the Great, and he is greek - speaking greek language and looking like greek [img]http://www.newgenevacenter.org/portrait/alexander1.jpg[/img]- check for yourself if you are from these few people in the world which dont know this [url]http://www.newgenevacenter.org/biography/alexander2.htm[/url]
From other side, yes, my great great great great ....parents was a Bulgarians from the central Asia - noone can deny it - our country is called after them:) But they was the warlike rulling class which organized the blond slavs to fight against the Byzantines. for 200-300 years nothing left from the language or culture of the protobulgars, melted in the ocean of slavs...Bulgaria is slavonic country from more than 1000 yars "...Armed with the Cyrillic alphabet, Bulgaria became the main centre of Slavonic culture in Europe. The "golden age" of literature and arts coincided with the reign of Tsar Simeon (893–927)..."[url]http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-816056-bulgaria_the_first_bulgarian_kingdom-i[/url]
For the Bazil Bulgaroctonus it is historycally clear that he is called this way for slaying the bulgarian army of the bulgarian tzar Samuil. Also historycally clear is that Samuil was bulgarian tzar
quote:... your believings are wrong - and not only for this[;)]- yes, we are the first country - check again for yourself:
quote:[url]http://www.eab-berlin.de/projekte/wahl_makedonienen.htm[/url] 3.Yes, it was rude to mention the shiptars. But this was only to make you, the ungrateful, remember that Bulgaria supported you again with weapons
quote:[url]http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=2722[/url] But think a little bit - Bulgaria is an island of ethnic peace.
quote:[url]http://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2004/s040402h.htm[/url] Maybe Macedonia is full of racist idots which made an ethnic civil war 5 years after the creation of the country:) And is easy for you to call me "Racist idiot" from the safety of 15000 km away from the muslims on the Balkans somewhere in Australia on the other side of the world. 4.No. I am not lucky that turkish empire left our country larger... Turkey was completely defeated by the Christian coalition made from Russians, Romanians, Finlands and Bulgarians. Turkey was forced to retreat from our lands. After this at the Paris conference the great westenr powers separated Bulgaria on 3 parts. But shortly after this Bulgaria united. No more history lessons on that.[;)] And before 20 years, noone was heard of the country Macedonia from tousends years - since the Alexander (remember he is greek). 5.I dont deny the history[:)] - you deny it. 6.I dont know how much people are blue- eyed in Macedonia... I n fact I knew few and they are all dark - eyed/haired. I saw also your ex president [img]http://faq.macedonia.org/images/boris.trajkovski.jpg[/img] God forgives him, he is also dark- eyed and haired. Here is a picture of our president Georgi Parvanov [img]http://www.suaramerdeka.com/harian/0111/20/sm10320.jpg[/img]. I bet you can see the difference. Other comparision - miss Macedonia on the right [img]http://www.globalbeauties.com/gb/international/2002/images/mi0062.jpg[/img] and miss Bulgaria [img]http://www.prensa.com/especial/2003/miss/fotos/Bulgaria.jpg[/img] [img]http://123india.santabanta.com/gallery1.asp?mid1=6300[/img] I know this is not very academic way of finding the truth,but is something everyone can see. If you can, show me a proofs how much Macedonians are with blue eyes and how much Bulgarians ... 7.You are maybe right about something here - Kliment knew the macedonian dialect the same way the bulgarians living in the region Mecedonia knew it. Its just a dialect. And not right about the second part of your opinion - Kliment did not have anything to do with Christianity, exept he was a crhistian. All Kliment done there in Ohrid was to finish the new cyrilic alphabet and to make a school there.
quote:[url]http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-816056-bulgaria_the_first_bulgarian_kingdom-i[/url] And the christianity in these lands was set by the Bulgarian khan Boris
quote:(same source) I think you are the one that lack in history, dear Deian and every normal person will tell you this if spend the time to read all we said to each other. And no, you dont look like tartar... but I dont know any tartars to make comparision. Stay with peace Dejan (
quote:How hypocrite, you have a right to say that, and we cant say Macedonia is slavonic country from more than 1500 years??? And now an interesting thought from a greek visitor of this forum: "I think that the Bulgarian nation is actually a paradoxical statement.The original Volga tribe was to begin with, a nomadic turkic tribe.Then they sweep up all the left over hunic tribes while north of the Danube.The Bulgar federation of tribes attack Byzantium.Just from this period you can say that the Bulgar "culture" still in infant stage is being diluted with other Hunic tribes. fast forward................. It is clear during the overthrow of the Boyars that the slavs without fighting the Bulgars in a major military conflict had actually assimilated them into their society.The wars between the Bulgars and the Byzantines were on and off.At times the Byzantines fought them at times bribed them.In the end Byzantium conquered the Bulgars.But the Bulgars that the Byzantines first met and the ones they finally defeated had nothing or in any case, very little in common. As for the Bulgarians of today there seems to be a an odd mismatch of self perception.A nation which has a slavic language,and cultural make up (Bulgarians percieve themselves as slavs and Bulgars simultaneously?!?)see their founders in Han Asparuh and Han Omurtag. I think it is more accurate to say that whatever one considers truly "Bulgarian"(as in Bulgar) culture,or nation,etc, went extinct and recieved it's deathblow soon after the overthrow of the Boyars. When centuries later Samuil declares himself "King of the Bulgars",I would argue that he was refering (influenced by the Byzantine understanding)to himself as King of those who lived in the lands percieved as Bugarian (the lands not the people),but in truth if one is to compare Samuil and Han Asparuh one would quickly run out of common identifying caracteristics." I really wouldnt start with blue eyes, brown hairs, black hairs, and all that shit. If you want to form a nation, a process that last for centurys and if a nation lays on balkans, a transitive region, you cant expect them to look the same.
quote:Which town was called south slavonic jerusalem? Oh yeah it was Ohrid. And Cyrily and Methody were from Solun, a city that always was Macedonian.
quote:Hahahaha, that was ... Macedonia was always a name for this place. Only the inhabitants were named after the state that ruled them. Bulgarians by bulgarians, serbians by serbians, romanians by romanians(byzantine), and today greeks by greeks. But the name Macedonia was always well known[;)]
quote:Well thank you for enlightenig us by travel.yahoo.com pages[:)]
|Misirkov||Dimo: What is the point of your post?! Do you realize how incredibly stupid you appear, your historical "babi i zhabi" nothwithstanding, in trying to "argue" that we Macedonians are not what we are? Calling you "Kazakh" is slightly inacurate; Dejan should have called you Chuvash or Tatar, wihch ARE Bulgar peoples that actually speak bulgrian languages. Perhaps you have heard of Mishars as well? These are your brothers? Think about it. You may well realize that you have macedonian roots and only carry a POLITICAL name "Bulgarian". Calling us Greek is plain ridiculous! Alexander the Great, who spoke Macedonian as his native language -- as shown by Quintus Rufus -- was and is considered by the science of history as Macedonian. That is beyond discussion in historical circles, it is a historical fact!!! Virtually every ancient and modern historian agrees on this point. Even Bulgarian historians acknowledge this fact such as Ganco Cenov for example. So wake up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "From other side, yes, my great great great great ....parents was a Bulgarians from the central Asia - noone can deny it - our country is called after them." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am glad you realize that your country is named after the turko-mongol Bulgars -- asiatic people that have nothing to do with us Macedonians! Do you think all the people living in the lands which the Bulgars enslaved were Bulgarians??? Bulgarian historiography says so. It claims that everybody TURNED ETHNICALLY into Bulgarian once the Bulgar came to ravage the land and acepted Christianity! Do you realize how crazy that position is??? And how utterly lunatic is what follows from it: namely that everything else, the language, the alphabet(s), people,s lands, etc. is all bulgarian. And finally, since your claim that your granddaddy came to the Balkans from Bulgariastan/Tatarstan as nomadic invader, have you considered getting back to your fatherland in Central Asia??? Contrary to you, our grandfathers were from Macedonia and we consider it our fatherland that has nothing to do with ATILA -- the "grandfather of the Bulgars" (as is stated in the "Imenik na B'lgarskite Hanove" from the 8th century). True, Bulgaria was the first country to recognize Macedonia and supported Macedonia with weapons; we were very thankful for that. But Bulgaria has continued to play the Balkan power games and still denies the existence of the Macedonian people and language -- i.e. it continues to be a Greek policy instrument -- and that is not a genuinely friendly behavior. Ottoman Turkey WAS forced to retreat from our lands, also thanks to over hundred thousand Macedonian fighers (the Sandanski cheta for example fought independently, while others were drafted in neighboring armies). But then some of those lands such as Macedonia were quite brutally parttitioned by the neighbors -- the result of which is YOU, among other things. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For decades now Bulgaria has been a stabilizing factor and unique example of ethnic peace and religious tolerance in the Balkans and South East Europe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For decades Bulgaria has been one of the most repressive countries. Lest you forget discrimination against Turks and Macedonians? If NATO or whatever official website you quoted says that, it is to placate your hungry-for-glory heads for its purposes in the Balkans. -------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can, show me a proofs how much Macedonians are with blue eyes and how much Bulgarians ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- My friend, we don't have to show you or prove anything; our existence is the final "proof".|
|Misirkov||ZAKLUCOKOT NA RILSKIOT KONGRES NA BMPO OD 1905 g.: "SITE PROJAVI VO DELATA I POSTAPKITE NA EGZARHIJATA I NEJZINITE ORGANI, KOI SE NASOCENI VO DUHOT NA BUGARSKIOT NACIONALIZAM, ORGANIZACIJATA GI SMETA ZA PAKOSNI NA NEJZINITE CELI I IM SE SPROTIVSTAVUVA." Ova sleduva po pretrpeniot neuspeh vo Ilindenskoto vostanie, so ne mala uloga na Bugarija vo toa, koga VMRO se nasla vo vonredno teski uslovi. Egzarhijata uste povekje se stremela da ja dounisti VMRO. Neuspehot znacelo i presmetuvanje so vrhovistite, a ogorceni od stavot na Egzarhijata, povtorno pocnale da ja zasiluvaat idejata za sozdavanje samostojna makedonska crkva. Sogleduvajkji go raspolozenieto na makedonskiot narod, a da se socuva status-kvoto vo Makedonija, taa ideja ja poddrzale togas i Rusija i Avrsto-Ungarija. Togas bil napraven zaednicki plan za obnova na Ohridskata Arhiepiskopija kako AVTOKEFALNA MAKEDONSKA CRKVA, na celo so patrijarh, dodeka za ucilistata i administracijata se predviduvalo voveduvanje na MAKEDONSKI JAZIK. Opasnosta od obnovuvanje na Ohridskata Arhiepiskopija osobeno ja pocuvstvuvala Egzarhijata koga Misirkov ja artikuliral voljata na makedonskiot narod vo "Za Makedonckite raboti." Kolku bile isplaseni za svoite pozicii se gleda i od akciite sto gi prevzel EGZARHOT VO OBIKOLKA NA NEKOI PRESTOLNINI ZA DA BI SE DOOBJASNILA EGZARHISKATA POLITIKA I NAVODNIOT "BUGARSKI" KARAKTER NA MAKEDONSKIOT NAROD. Egzarhijata gi zasiluva naporite da ja pobugarci Makedonija, barakji vo toa bugarskata vlada uste poaktivno da ucestvuva vo toa. Taka na pr. na 30.IX.1904, EGZARHOT REAGIRAL KAJ PRETSEDATELOT NA BUGARSKATA VLADA PROTIV VMRO, ZAPLASUVAJKJI DEKA KJE GO POVLECE STRUMICKIOT MITROPOLIT GERASIM I KJE GI ZATVORI UCILISTATA VO STRUMICKATA I PEHCEVSKATA NAHIJA. PORADI BARANJETO NA EGZARHOT DA BIDE ZATVOREN HRISTO CERNOPEEV, OD STRANA NA VMRO BIL OSUDEN NA SMRT MITROPOLITOT GERASIM. Zaradi vakvata polozba odnosite vo i so Egzarhijata bile raspravani na Rilskiot kongres, kade sto e daden gorniot zaklucok. So ova vsusnost VMRO im dava na znaenje na bugarskata vlada i Egzarhijata deka nikakvo pripojuvanje na Makedonija kon Bugarija ne doadja vo predvid! Za vreme na matnoto vreme na crkovnite propagandi, bitno e da se istakne, deka mladoturcite i konkretno poranesniot solunski valija Mithad pasa istaknuvale deka Makedoncite i Bugarite se dva posebni naroda i se zalagale za obnovuvanje na Ohridskata arhiepiskopija kako nezavisna crkva od bugarskata. Ovoj pasa otvoreno se zalagal za ramnopravnost na site narodnosti vo Otomanskata Imperija. Za vakvata dejnost na Mithad-pasa vo 1872 godina reagira P. Karapetrov: "MITHAD PASA SE OBIDE DA GI UBEDUVA NEKOI OD POVIDNITE MAKEDONSKI BUGARI DEKA TIE NE SE BUGARI, TUKU MAKEDONCI, DEKA TIE SE NAROD POSEBEN OD BUGARSKIOT (STO SE GLEDALO I OD NIVNIOT JAZIKKOJ NE BIL BUGARSKI), DEKA DOBRO KJE STORAT AKO SE ODDELAT OD BUGARITE I DEKA NA TAKOV NACIN KJE SI IMAAT SVOJA SAMOSTOJNA CRKVA PREKU OBNOVUVANJETO NA OHRIDSKATA ARIEPISKOPIJA." Za vreme na prvite izbori za otomanskiot parlament vo 1912, NITU EDEN Egzarhiski kandidat ne bil izbran od Makedonija!|